Are we all too suspicious?

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DL82

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I have noticed a trend on this forum lately, in threads such as this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10873431&postcount=80
and this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10350389&postcount=2

forum posters are increasingly encouraging people to be suspicious of their spouse, to consider divorce and annulment as the easiest solution whenever the Church’s canons would even remotely allow it.

I have had similar advice myself during a difficult phase in my marriage, and found it singularly unhelpful. Being told that there is an acceptable escape route when the one you love is hurting and you feel hopeless is like giving a suicidal person a rope and a bottle of pills.

I realise people often come here to seek advice when they don’t know where else to turn, when revealing information to someone they know in real life (a family member, priest or counsellor) would be too hard. Then people often stay, because they find a like-minded community to support them, and that’s wonderful.

However, I wonder whether that experience of hurt then colors our judgment when others come looking for advice. If you have been hurt and deceived, manipulated by an evil person, if your marriage has fallen apart and you have been left to try to reconcile yourself to God and to pick up the pieces, then whenever someone else comes here hurting, you’re going to imagine the worst. Suspicion and separation become the go-to responses.

Marriage is a sacrament, and in that sacrament, grace is given from God. That is efficacious grace, it actually accomplishes the thing that God intends, and all we have to do is be open to receive it. None of us are perfectly disposed at the beginning, otherwise we wouldn’t need the grace in the first place. All of us could be said to be closed off in some way, that some annulment tribunal could possibly pick apart. Some of us take a long time to grow into acceptance of that grace, and some of us never do, but live in hope all the same. Only if we actively resist it, can God’s grace not work, because He respects our freedom.

That’s why we should always assume that a marriage is valid unless there is some de jure immovable impediment (such as someone who is already married, a priest, two people of same sex, etc.) It might not look like it to the outside, but God’s grace is an incredible thing. Not every Eucharist is the miracle of Lanciano, not every person who receives the Anointing of the Sick recovers, but the sacrament is efficacious in every case. Sometimes we won’t see the hidden grace at work.

Now, of course, the Sacrament of Marriage isn’t magic, and there has to be some common sense employed too. All the same, God will work his purpose out in ways we can’t imagine, and with Him is forgiveness, for His steadfast love endures forever.

I wonder whether some of us, myself included, are seeing the world through unresolved bitterness. Perhaps be aware of that, if we are to avoid encouraging others to become suspicious and resentful of their spouses, and to avoid making a bad situation worse.

Sts Joachim & Anna, pray for us!
Bl. Louis & Zelie Martin, pray for us!
Bl. Luigi & Maria Quattrocci, pray for us!
 
I read (but did not participate) in the first post you mentioned. That post was almost unbelievable to begin with and then it just kept getting more and more out there… in this particular situation - yes - I think we were/are all somewhat suspicious… but as far as “crying divorce” - this particular young woman is what I consider to be “at risk” and if others hadn’t told her to speak up I probably would have. I’m still scared for her safety and well-being. I absolutely believe that neither the priest or the forum here have the full story. I pray that she’s able to find the help she needs to either save her marriage from the ruins its in currently or to get out for her own health and safety.
 
DL,

Yours is the second post in recent weeks observing the tendency of respondents to posts related to marital strife lean in the direction of separation/divorce/annulment. Having observed and participated in these forums for about 2.5 years and having come here with a predicament in that vein, I share your view. The tendency derives from two major factors:

Selection Bias

I suspect that any inclination in a particular direction is mainly a function of the fact that many posters have not only been through the separation/divorce/annulment steps but have been the initiators. For all I know, any and/or all of them did the right thing in their own situations, but I suspect that we simply don’t hear from many folks who overcame their marital difficulties at least in part because they have far less time to devote to online forums insofar as they are spending that time working on their marriages.

Cultural Differences

I see that you are posting from the UK. I have no firsthand knowledge of the degree of liberalization of the Roman Catholic Church there, but it proceeds unabated here in the US. Put simply, the Church in the US is not standing up for the sacrament of marriage as it should; it has sacrificed truth-seeking for pastoralism, likely rendering many valid Catholic marriages null (by way of liberal tribunals) and/or exerting a chilling effect on the remainder of Catholic marriages in all states of health (by not enforcing the rules related to ecclesiastical separation and remaining woefully ignorant of domestic relations jurisprudence in this country, to name a few).

The Church in the US would be unrecognizable to that in which my parents were raised (pre-Vatican II). Many here think that is a good thing. I disagree.
 
I have noticed a trend on this forum lately, in threads such as this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10873431&postcount=80
and this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10350389&postcount=2

forum posters are increasingly encouraging people to be suspicious of their spouse, to consider divorce and annulment as the easiest solution whenever the Church’s canons would even remotely allow it.
Not to encourage suspicion but to act on those suspicions. There is a reason the poster is suspicious in the first place and comes to a website asking for advice. In the case of the second link you will notice that the poster had very good reasons to be suspicious and eventually learned that he knew way less than half of what he was dealing with.
 
There is no way I would ever recommend an abused spouse go crawling back to their husband/wife to go and be abused some more.

Not happening.

I will always recommend at least separation.

That first thread was out of control. It would be detrimental to her physical and mental health to go back to that man. Period.

OP…would you recommend a battered, abused, serial cheated on spouse go back to their marriage to suffer more abuse and infidelity?

I hope not.
 
I have noticed a trend on this forum lately, in threads such as this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10873431&postcount=80
and this:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10350389&postcount=2

forum posters are increasingly encouraging people to be suspicious of their spouse, to consider divorce and annulment as the easiest solution whenever the Church’s canons would even remotely allow it.
!
Assuming that both of those threads are completely honest about their situations, I’m going to disagree 100% with your assessment. The Church does not require Catholics to stay in abusive marriages, and separation can be a very prudent choice. In fact, in the case of serial adultery, it is the ONLY prudent choice. No one is saying that these marriages cannot be healed, because our God is a God of miracles, but that when one has been deceived about the kind of person one has married, it is a prudential action to separate for a time and get counseling, receive advice from parents, etc.

The first post you linked to is from someone who, if the story is real, has been taken advantage of by her husband, and who is very likely unable to see that the situation she’s in is extreme. To a poster, we all advised her to separate and get to a place where she can evaluate the situation without the cloud of “love” fogging her vision.

See the CCC on marital fidelity, 1646-1651 and especially, 1649.

1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.159 (2383)

We all know the Church’s and God’s laws about marriage. But some situations are beyond the bounds of normality. Whether or not these two threads are truthful, there could be people reading who are in similar situations and do not realize that separation is an option. I think we owe it to them as well as the OP to state it in plain terms.
 
I don’t think it’s that people are too suspicious. I think there’s a tendency to want to protect the poster at all costs, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It does mean that people are not going to want to put the poster in a situation that is dangerous, even if that means not giving their spouse another chance.

Sophia’s case in particular sounded really extreme to me, and I would be surprised if the marriage was actually considered valid. I don’t post on threads about married people’s situations, but I got mad just reading about what her boyfriend-now-husband did to her. :mad:

I don’t think anyone encouraging separation and even seeking a degree of nullity was at all out of line. It sounded like the best option. And while I’d normally be inclined to trust the priest who actually met the man, think about it- this man tricked Sophia for at least several months before they were married. I think tricking a priest into believing he’s sincere would be well within his abilities, so that possibility should at least be seriously considered.
 
I don’t want to make this thread about Sophia’s case, but I agree with whoever earlier mentioned confirmation bias. I think confirmation bias is a big problem here.

It can also be an issue for people who want to be in control in every situation, and sometimes very traditionally minded Catholics can like having everything under perfect control, clear cut answers, perfect liturgies, orthodox sermons. I dont know whether controlling people are attracted to Catholic Traditionalism, or whether Traditionalism nurtures controlling tendencies, but I know it has been true of me in the past. If you always suspect the worst then you will create the bad marriage you suspected even if it wasn’t there to begin with, and when it all goes wrong at least you will have the consolation of being in control. Control comes at a price, joy is that price.

I wonder too if some people here who have escaped from unhealthy addictions to online pornography may be using addictions to strong emotions of anger, hurt, empathy about anonymous others’ relationships on this online forum as a substitute?
 
Assuming that both of those threads are completely honest about their situations, I’m going to disagree 100% with your assessment. **The Church does not require Catholics to stay in abusive marriages, and separation can be a very prudent choice. In fact, in the case of serial adultery, it is the ONLY prudent choice. ** No one is saying that these marriages cannot be healed, because our God is a God of miracles, but that when one has been deceived about the kind of person one has married, it is a prudential action to separate for a time and get counseling, receive advice from parents, etc.
(snip)
The first post you linked to is from someone who, if the story is real, has been taken advantage of by her husband, and who is very likely unable to see that the situation she’s in is extreme. To a poster, we all advised her to separate and get to a place where she can evaluate the situation without the cloud of “love” fogging her vision.
(snip)
👍

I cannot imagine recommending anyone stay in an abusive situation.
 
I don’t want to make this thread about Sophia’s case, but I agree with whoever earlier mentioned confirmation bias. I think confirmation bias is a big problem here.

It can also be an issue for people who want to be in control in every situation, and sometimes very traditionally minded Catholics can like having everything under perfect control, clear cut answers, perfect liturgies, orthodox sermons. I dont know whether controlling people are attracted to Catholic Traditionalism, or whether Traditionalism nurtures controlling tendencies, but I know it has been true of me in the past. If you always suspect the worst then you will create the bad marriage you suspected even if it wasn’t there to begin with, and when it all goes wrong at least you will have the consolation of being in control. Control comes at a price, joy is that price.

I wonder too if some people here who have escaped from unhealthy addictions to online pornography may be using addictions to strong emotions of anger, hurt, empathy about anonymous others’ relationships on this online forum as a substitute?
Do not buy into the secular world’s morally relativistic view with regard to the above. the two can not be reconciled and only one of them is wrong. It is not true that adhering to the faith, even from a traditionalist view, creates marital problems except insofar as the most of the world, including the Church herself, has been infected with wrongheaded notions about right and wrong. The Church, particularly in the US, has become too much of the world and not just in it.
 
Do not buy into the secular world’s morally relativistic view with regard to the above. the two can not be reconciled and only one of them is wrong. It is not true that adhering to the faith, even from a traditionalist view, creates marital problems except insofar as the most of the world, including the Church herself, has been infected with wrongheaded notions about right and wrong. The Church, particularly in the US, has become too much of the world and not just in it.
I wasn’t saying that the faith itself leads to marital problems. Far from it.

The point I was trying to make is that certain things about this forum - it’s (good) faithfulness to Catholic doctrine, the nature of a text-based medium and its suitability for intellectualising human problems, maybe some of the people who gravitate toward these forums may find it easier to be in control than to let God take control. This is a temptation we all have, and as long as we recognise it and fight it, well and good.

I am just saying that for a controlling person (regardless of whether they are Catholic) it is always a temptation to fear the worst in a marriage - confront your spouse about imagined infidelity enough times and sooner or later you’ll find that they actually do leave you for someone else! See, you were justified all along!

My apologies if it seemed I was criticising the faith itself. That wasn’t my intention, rather I wanted to help people discern if their own attitudes and behaviours on this forum were less than helpful.
 
I wasn’t saying that the faith itself leads to marital problems. Far from it.

The point I was trying to make is that certain things about this forum - it’s (good) faithfulness to Catholic doctrine, the nature of a text-based medium and its suitability for intellectualising human problems, maybe some of the people who gravitate toward these forums may find it easier to be in control than to let God take control. This is a temptation we all have, and as long as we recognise it and fight it, well and good.

I am just saying that for a controlling person (regardless of whether they are Catholic) it is always a temptation to fear the worst in a marriage - confront your spouse about imagined infidelity enough times and sooner or later you’ll find that they actually do leave you for someone else! See, you were justified all along!

My apologies if it seemed I was criticising the faith itself. That wasn’t my intention, rather I wanted to help people discern if their own attitudes and behaviours on this forum were less than helpful.
You sound awfully suspicious of your fellow posters.
 
👍

I cannot imagine recommending anyone stay in an abusive situation.
Growing up I have encountered too many people who actually recommend that people stay in abusive situations and “offer it up”.

My father would often point out these people to me to make a comment about crazy Catholics.
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++

God’s Spirit is in my heart,
He has called me and set me apart.
This is what I have to do,
what I have to do.

He sent me to give the Good News to the poor,
Tell prisoners that they are prisoners no more,
Tell blind people that they can see,
And set the downtrodden free
And go tell everyone the news that the Kingdom of God has come,
And go tell everyone the news that the Kingdom of God has come.

Just as the Father sent me,
So I’m sending you out to be
My witnesses throughout the world,
The whole of the world.

Don’t worry what you have to say,
Don’t worry because on that day
God’s Spirit will speak in your heart,
Will speak in your heart.
 
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