Are we already in heaven / hell?

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Sir_Knight

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God, heaven, hell, etc.; exist outside of time. Does that mean that we are already there?

If we go there after our death, then a place which exists outside of time would be dependent on events which happen inside of time which would then force it to be inside of time which it isn’t?

Everybody follow? Comments? Opinions?
 
Since God is the ultimate reality and God is outside of time and space, that logically leads to the question of at least “How real are our perceptions of time and space?”, or even “Are time and space real at all (as we currently understand them)?”.

Hell is supposed to be separation from God.
As God is outside of time and space, and we are in it, that would imply that we are in hell.

Of course, the phrase “be in the world, but not of it” could also read “be in time and space, but not of time and space”.
That would allow for the many saints and yogis who did not seem to be in hell (as in separate from God) here.

The mystical and miraculous experiences of these saints and yogis, if not the words they chose to use to express their experiences, definitely lead one to question our understanding of what time and space really are.
And if you are going to question the true nature of time and space, you inevitably have to question the true nature of your own being.

Personally, I find the concept of “Time and Space” quite consistent with the concept of “Purgatory”.
 
Sir_Knight said:
God, heaven, hell, etc.; exist outside of time. Does that mean that we are already there?

If we go there after our death, then a place which exists outside of time would be dependent on events which happen inside of time which would then force it to be inside of time which it isn’t?

Everybody follow? Comments? Opinions?
Click to expand...
I don’ get it…
We live and move in our Creator. The world is in the presence of hell, heaven, and God. We just don’ have the eyes to see it. We are in a temporal loop, as it were, freely bouncing off other temporal free bodies; and where we end up nobody knows, but we acquire a general drift in one or other directions.
If God, hell, & heaven exists outside of time as eternity and as infinity, time and matter are therefore God twisted through a 90 degree loop - to give eternity a temporal reality by imparting on infinity the quality of ‘direction’ with regard to itself - infinity. Once infinity has a loop of direction and a position in relation to another loop of temporal material then you have ‘space’.
So we live in God, and in God we live and move and have our being. We as personalities are as intimately in the presence of God and eternity as our atoms and quarks and gluons are intimately in the presence of God - as just so much eternity twisted about itself just enough to give that piece of eternity direction, and direction gives the quality of energy and energy can be bound as matter.
We are eternal creatures bound up from that substance, eternity.
 
Sir_Knight said:
God, heaven, hell, etc.; exist outside of time. Does that mean that we are already there?

If we go there after our death, then a place which exists outside of time would be dependent on events which happen inside of time which would then force it to be inside of time which it isn’t?

Everybody follow? Comments? Opinions?
Click to expand...
Samsara does not have the slightest distinction from Nirvana.
Nirvana does not have the slightest distinction from Samsara.

Whatever is the end of Nirvana, that is the end of Samsara.
There is not even a very subtle slight distinction between the two.
  • Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20
    In short, yes.
rossum
 
Sir_Knight said:
God, heaven, hell, etc.; exist outside of time. Does that mean that we are already there?

If we go there after our death, then a place which exists outside of time would be dependent on events which happen inside of time which would then force it to be inside of time which it isn’t?

Everybody follow? Comments? Opinions?
Click to expand...
The short answer - NO.
Hell is a condition that is devoid of God - we are not.
Heaven is the Beatific vision, a state of perfection - which we do not possess.
 
elvisman said:
The short answer - NO.
Hell is a condition that is devoid of God - we are not.
Heaven is the Beatific vision, a state of perfection - which we do not possess.
Click to expand...
The Beatific Vision is “merely” the seeing of Who and What our souls have already been participating in, thus if we are in a state of grace we have Heaven planted in our souls.

There is a recent thread discussing “theosis” or “divinization” that you might find helpful; this these words express the absolute transformation of oneself through the soul’s participation in God’s Divine Nature. This is not something we of ourselves have, but can only receive by grace initiated in Baptism and grown through fidelity to the sacramental life of the Church. Through theosis we take part in the life of the Most Holy Trinity; we become truly united (not just de jure, but de facto) in the Divine Life which the Divine Persons alone have by their Nature.

St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church, writes profoundly about what the Catechism expresses of the doctrine:
“. . .the Bridegroom [Christ] communicates Himself to the soul by means of the adornment of these virtues, He feeds on the soul, transforming her into Himself, now that she is prepared and seasoned with the flowers of virtues, gifts, and perfections, the seasonings with which, and among which, He feeds on her. By means of the Holy Spirit, who prepares the dwelling, these virtues delight the Son of God so that through them He may feed more on the love of the soul. This is the characteristic of the Bridegroom: to unite Himself with the soul amid the fragrance of these flowers.” Stanza 17, #10.
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“Turn Your face toward the mountains. . .The face of God is the divinity, and the mountains are the soul’s faculties (memory, intellect, and will). This verse is like saying: Let Your divinity shine on my intellect by giving it divine knowledge, and on my will by imparting to it divine love, and on my memory with the divine possession of glory.”
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“The soul asks in this line for everything she possibly can ask of Him. She is no longer satisfied with the knowledge and communication of the “back” of God - which was His communication to Moses [Ex. 33:23] - and which is knowledge of Him in His effects and works; she can only be satisfied with God’s face, which is an essential communication of the divinity of the soul. This communication is not brought about through any means, but through a certain contact of the soul with the divinity. This contact is something foreign to everything sensory and accidental, since it is a touch of naked substances - of the soul and the divinity.” Stanza 19, #4
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“. . .Beloved, first turn to the interior of my soul, and be enamored of the company - the riches - You have placed there, so that loving the soul through them You may dwell and hide in her. For, indeed, even though they are Yours, since You gave them to her, they also belong to her.” Stanza 19, #6
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Also from the Catechism:
1726 The Beatitudes teach us the final end to which God calls us: the Kingdom, the vision of God, participation in the divine nature, eternal life, filiation, rest in God.
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1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature: for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object
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1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.
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(The same goes - conversely - for Hell.)
 
A long time ago I heard a story about St. John Bosco. God allowed him in a vision to see the souls of the boys in his care. One of the boys had he had seen the night before, alive, but St. John had a vision of him already suffering in Hell. St. John asked how this was possible and he was told that the boy was already dead to God’s grace and in Hell. I’m still confused about this whole space/time element, but I guess this is the Fundamental Option the theologians talk about. Our choice is made every single moment of our lives.
 
FCEGM said:
The Beatific Vision is “merely” the seeing of Who and What our souls have already been participating in, thus if we are in a state of grace we have Heaven planted in our souls.

There is a recent thread discussing “theosis” or “divinization” that you might find helpful; this these words express the absolute transformation of oneself through the soul’s participation in God’s Divine Nature. This is not something we of ourselves have, but can only receive by grace initiated in Baptism and grown through fidelity to the sacramental life of the Church. Through theosis we take part in the life of the Most Holy Trinity; we become truly united (not just de jure, but de facto) in the Divine Life which the Divine Persons alone have by their Nature.

St. John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church, writes profoundly about what the Catechism expresses of the doctrine:
Also from the Catechism:

(The same goes - conversely - for Hell.)
Click to expand...
Actually, the Beatific Vision is the immediate knowledge of God in heaven - to be in his presence - not just in the sense that we are able to know him here on earth.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
*The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called “vision” to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed “beatific”. *
 
elvisman said:
Actually, the Beatific Vision is the immediate knowledge of God in heaven - to be in his presence - not just in the sense that we are able to know him here on earth.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven. It is called “vision” to distinguish it from the mediate knowledge of God which the human mind may attain in the present life. And since in beholding God face to face the created intelligence finds perfect happiness, the vision is termed “beatific”.
Click to expand...
Right. And that knowledge/vision is the revelation to the soul of what it - if in the state of grace - held within itself by Faith.
 
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