Are We As Catholics, Obsessed with Mary?

[BenedictFTW]

I agree. The name-calling is a bit out-of-order.

If we want Protestants to stop assuming Catholics are “idol-worshipers,” Catholics should stop assuming Protestants “Mary haters.”

What about how Our Lady feels?

 

[Brooklyn]

I agree. The name-calling is a bit out-of-order.

If we want Protestants to stop assuming Catholics are “idol-worshipers,” Catholics should stop assuming Protestants “Mary haters.”

There is no name calling here I am merely stating facts as I actually lived them I am speaking from experience. No where did I use the term “Mary haters.” Please do not put words into my mouth,

 

[Brooklyn]

What about how Our Lady feels?

I guess that doesn’t matter.

 

[BenedictFTW]

I agree. The name-calling is a bit out-of-order.

If we want Protestants to stop assuming Catholics are “idol-worshipers,” Catholics should stop assuming Protestants “Mary haters.”

The only name calling was when I was called a ‘ranter’ because I refused to accept the suggestion that I hide how much I love my Heavenly Queen in MY OWN CHURCH!

 

[Bezant]

There is no name calling here I am merely stating facts as I actually lived them I am speaking from experience. No where did I use the term “Mary haters.” Please do not put words into my mouth,

Did I specifically call you out?

 

[Bezant]

The only name calling was when I was called a ‘ranter’ because I refused to accept the suggestion that I hide how much I love my Heavenly Queen in MY OWN CHURCH!

I never specifically called you a “ranter” and I have never suggested that Catholics should hide Mary.

 

[Bezant]

You make statements and when you are called on them, you change what you said originally. Then you accuse everyone of accusing you of something. Your arguments lack consistency and integrity.

At least two other posters have understood my responses properly.

 

[Brooklyn]

Think again. From Wikipedia:

As a reflection of this theological opposition, Protestant reformers destroyed much religious art and Marian statues and paintings in churches in northern Europe and England. Some of the Protestant reformers, in particular Andreas Karlstadt, Huldrych Zwingli and John Calvin, encouraged the removal of religious images by invoking the Decalogue’s prohibition of idolatry and the manufacture of graven images of God. Major iconoclastic riots took place in Zürich (in 1523), Copenhagen (1530), Münster (1534), Geneva (1535), Augsburg (1537), and Scotland (1559). Protestant inconoclasm swept through the Seventeen Provinces (now the Netherlands and Belgium and parts of Northern France) in the summer of 1566. In the middle of the 16th century, the Council of Trent confirmed the Catholic tradition of paintings and artworks in churches. This resulted in a great development of Marian art and Mariology during the Baroque Period.

I’m still waiting for those links that show modern Protestant churches with statues of Mary.

 

[BenedictFTW]

“Iconoclasm” was a huge part of the Reformation:

“Example of iconoclasm in the 16th century during the Reformation. Relief statues in St Stevenskerk in Nijmegen, the Netherlands, were attacked and defaced in … Iconoclasm is the deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or … well purged”, “Burning of images”, and "the Papists packing away their paltry.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm. It is still the case today. I was in a Methodist Church recently and it was STARK!

I actually learned about this as part of a degree course. I should have been more clear. Btw Church of Ireland is definitely Protestant - whether they choose to use the term or not.

 

[Brooklyn]

Did I specifically call you out?

Since you didn’t specifically call anyone out, I didn’t know if you were referring to me or not. But the fact remains that no one has used those terms and you are putting words in people’s mouths that were not said.

 

[BenedictFTW]

At least two other posters have understood my responses properly.

I understand them perfectly. You say one thing, then deny you said it. Then you tell me I am ‘ranting’ and you accuse faithful Catholics of ‘worship’ when they pray to Our Blessed Mother, but then you deny you said this. Try reading your own posts. Peace of Christ be with you. For peace sake, I do not wish to continue with this petty exchange.

 

[Brooklyn]

A prominent painting of Jesus is not a statue of Mary. I can’t make out what the statues are in the other picture.

As far as going in and destroying Marian art in Catholic Church, no I guess youi’re right Protestants don’t seem to be doing that these days. But what does that prove?

 

[BenedictFTW]

The Irish church seems to depict characters from Irish folklore; I looked them up on Google. This is really irrelevant, imho.

The large painting of Jesus is beautiful, but Our Blessed Mother is nowhere to be seen. A weak argument, all in all.

 

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for the history lesson, but what does this have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[BenedictFTW]

I did study the history of the Church, which includes the Reformation. I am sorry to have to disagree with you on this one. The most atrocities were done by the Protestants, especially in Ireland. Read about the Penal Laws, which were in force for over 100 years in Ireland. Lots of reports of Catholic atrocities in England and Ireland were lies put about by the Protestant press, which was later admitted to. All over Europe, Protestants did terrible things against Catholics. The Spanish Inquisition has been used by Protestants for centuries as an example of how Protestants ‘suffered’ under the hands of Catholics. Again,this is a blatant falsehood, as any study will show.

In defence of my faith, and in the interests of honest study, it is unfair to compare what Catholics did to Protestants and say it was the same as what the Protestants did to the Catholics. However, Catholics have always tried to ‘turn the other cheek’, which of course will be denied in light of recent NI politics. But, history proves this. We are now in different times and we Catholics bend over backwards in order to protect the sensibilities of Protestants, sometimes against our own faith.

I do hope that our “separated brethren” come home to Mother Church one day, but I truly believe that only charity coupled with truth will allow this to happen.

 

[Brooklyn]

Look, what this all comes down to is Protestants do not accept the role of Mary in the plan of salvation. When Catholics pray to Mary, Protestants see no difference between “veneration” and “worship,” Protestants believe that their relationship is between them and God and there is no such thing as an intercessor or mediator. So trying to placate a Protestant by “playing down” devotion to Mary makes no sense whatsoever, and all you end up doing is insulting our Blessed Mother.

Our Blessed Mother is deserving of all devotion and veneration, and she returns it to us with her protection and intercession. This is a beautiful gift given to us by our Lord when he was breathing his last on the cross, and I for one am not about to hide it in any way from people who don’t understand it nor do they want to understand it.

My husband is hungry. I gotta go.

Peace

 

[BenedictFTW]

I think you will discover that the Virgin and Child in St Paul’s commemorates the artist, who is buried there, rather than venerates Our Blessed Mother. With Protestant sensibilities about Our Lady, you will be hard pressed to find Our Lady in a Protestant Church - the Protestants would not have such a problem with Christ’s Mother if this were not the case. Stands to reason.

 

[BenedictFTW]

I think those with the problem with Our Lady are Protestants; some Catholics, especially lapsed Catholics seem to have lost sight of Our Blessed Mother; but this too stems from Protestant error.

I mention the Inquisition to widen the scope of the conversation, as I did not wish to be bogged down in Northern Irish politics, which has its own particular demons. I was speaking about the Catholic/Protestant divide from the time of the Reformation. this was all over Europe and not specifically Irish.

As a side bar: The Penal Laws were aimed at Catholics. There is no mention of Presbytarianism, founded by John Calvin. They would not have been any threat to the English in Ireland. The Penal Laws were Protestant England’s efforts to control the Catholic population in Ireland. John Calvin hated Catholics too, so would have been in accord with the aims of the Penal Laws. The only Protestants that were caught up in the terror of the Penal Laws were those who were outraged at how Catholics were treated. Those were not many! Mainly because it was a matter of life and death to protect a Catholic during those days.

I think you and I learned our history from different sides of the Irish divide.

 

[friendlymomma]

This is a sensitive subject, huh?

*"From my experience, yes, some Catholics can and do take devotion to Mary a little too far.

I have been told, by more than one person, that if I do not have a devotion (which I do not)
to the Blessed Mother, I will not get to Heaven, that I do not love Jesus, and that by not saying the rosary daily, I am disrespecting her and the Church.

I honor Mary, and am grateful that she said that great big “yes” to God, however I do not find Marian devotions to be an effective way for me to pray. "*
The above post is from the first page or so of replies.

I am trying to develop a greater appreciation of Mary, but if someone said that to me, that would really discourage me from wanting to do so.

I would think the whole point of saying the rosary is to grow spiritually, some way or another. I try to say the rosary some. I just don’t get it. I think I will one day, but for now I say the chaplet of Divine Mercy, and I LOVE how it is helping me to mature in the faith and to focus my thoughts on our Blessed Lord.

I look forward to the day when I can understand how the rosary actually assists us and gives honor to the Blessed Mother and her Son. Honestly, it just doesn’t seem helpful to my faith for now. I think it is important for people to realize that not everyone’s faith and devotion has to look like theirs. Please, please, stop being so defensive! It is indeed very difficult for Protestants to understand about Mary. I still don’t entirely, and I know other Protestants-turned-Catholic who are slow on that as well. It is not because of a hardness of heart, or a desire to disrespect her. I used to think most Catholics worshipped Mary, but now I am learning to venerate her. I, my husband, and thousands and thousands of Protestants have come around, no thanks to the defensive Catholics out there.

 

[ProVobis]

This is absolutely true. I was guilty of this myself. As I said, most Protestants don’t even consider Catholics to be Christian. They don’t understand or accept the concept of original sin and certainly don’t understand Mary as the Immaculate Conception or her perpetual virginity. They don’t understand Mary as mediator between us and Christ, Heck, a good portion of Catholics don’t understand that, as can be seen on this forum.

All of you Catholics who are so concerned about offending Protestants are already behind the 8 ball. You may not like to hear that, but it’s the truth.,

I kind of agree with you.

It seems to me the Anglophone Catholic is probably more vulnerable to Protestant attacks because among other things he can’t defend the translation to the English “worship”. Also no reports of images anywhere. You will no doubt find more Marian devotion amonst the Poles or Hispanics. They have Our Lady of Guadalupe or Our Lady of Czestochowa, for example. But no Our Lady of London or Our Lady of Atlanta yet.

Interestingly enough, though, you won’t find a Protestant praying a Hail Mary but some of them really have beautiful singing renditions of the Latin Ave Maria.