Are we biological robots in the eyes of God?

[antroji]

Antroji – wow, what an incredible posting! It’s more lyrical and more insightful than most priestly homilies I’ve heard this year. Thanks much!

StAnastasia

Thanks. While I appreciate the need for tenet and dogma, my tendency is to go with the mystics and the more direct route. In whatever stream of spiritual considerations I look, it is rather inevitably the directness of the mystic that speaks with an authority stronger by several orders of magnitude than the homilies from the pulpit. And this is why, as well, that the grace of a competent spiritual guide who is accomplished in perception as distinct from book learning is absolutely invaluable.

As Jane Jacobs asserted in her work, it is not encyclopedic documentation of facts and processes that preserve and transmit civilization. It is acquiring the feel of something under the tutelage of a competent practitioner that accomplishes that. Remember, it takes at least 10,000 hours of practice for any person to reach an actual independent facility in any art or process, even if useful fruit results near the beginning. My Mentor could, because of his astonishing ability in Music, discern volumes of information about a person from a single sentence they uttered. We are, generally, very superficial in our perceptions and thoughts. Especially in our thinking about thoughts.

It is this lack of exercise of the self-reflexive aspect of awareness that keeps us in such states as RC is battling with, even if ours appear less noxious because more people share our limitations. But in any case, it is the feel of penetrating the intellectual assertions of religiosity that starts to yield some ability to be lyrical as distinct from dogmatic. I like to hear or sing the Song rather than read about the technicalities of where the notes go.

 

[fhansen]

We’re biological robots/hairless apes, who worry that these terms somehow should shame us into thinking we’re nothing more than robotic animals while our Creator, OTOH, knows we’re more than the sum of our parts and loves us with a love so profound and unconditional that we should be ashamed of that shame -we need to learn how to love ourselves, our neighbor, and Him in the same way, to the extent He’s created us to.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, being on Earth “in exile” implies that we came here from somewhere else that we lived before, and that we were expelled from that place. Are you arguing for the preexistence of humans before birth? If so, where were we before our conception? And why and by whom were we exiled, and by what mechanism did we get here on Earth?

Have you ever prayed the rosary and listen to Hail Holy Queen?

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, along with Grannymh, I cannot agree that severely depressed people have a more accurate interpretation. I know a few of those, and some chief characteristics of their considerations include or reject assumptions different from those of happier folks. But such can be dealt with in a number of ways, and I apologize if, as is probable, you know of and have utilized those. I am in no way intending to minimize that you are dealing with a bigger monster than many. While food and mood have some connection, it is that habituation of thinking that is predominant here. And investing heavily in the incomplete good vs. evil dynamic is no small contribution to that debilitation. And I’ve seen NLP help with some pretty severe situations in relatively short order. Have you considered that rout?

What more can I say but that it has been shown in research that depressed people have a more accurate interpretation of the world around them. Sorry I do not have a reference for this. I have been away from the field for some time.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t know, Robert. Here’s the thing: my take is that we tend to experience what we focus on. And I have to ask myself, “Who made this world, whose ideas does Nature reflect?” OK, I have some difficulties, and yes there are horrific things happening in the news. But it’s the business of the media and of satan nowadays to cause emotional furor in order to get attention and sell, sell, sell. But if God created this world, then whatever people are doing in it, our ability to appreciate Beauty and Love must be a chosen foretaste of Heaven.

I know it has to be a deliberate decision, but the one I made was to praise God by admiring the world I was put in. And part of that appreciation is to elevate and edify God’s Love, and the wonders that are inherent in our circumstances. I’m not by myself here. So if the evil that parades falsely is what gets my attention and preoccupies my mind to the point that I want to get out, for my part I judge myself as not paying attention to where I’m going. In other word, if my attention is on the hellish parts of existence, the devil wins. If I can be transported by sacred music, a sunset, a work of art, an innocent child, a loving relationship, I win and God wins, so to speak. At least God wins me, and has a fan who likes the stunning enormity of the Work of Creation.

I guess, to me, it is like God is an artist of excellence beyond words. And God is at the other end of this astonishing gallery that shows the Art that in our scale of things took billions of years to put in front of our senses. So am I going to go through the gallery at a sprint, not looking, only at God at the end? Yes, of course God is the greatest Glory and Beauty and all that. But when I get there, I wonder if I’ll be asked: "And what did you make of my Creation that I made for you? Will I say “Huh? There was stuff to look at and do? I just wanted to get here!” And would I be told, “Yes, but now that you are here, how much do you know about Me? Am I not reflected in my work, as is any artist? Did you not pause to ponder Who and What I Am, so that when you got here there would be something for us to talk about” Would I have to confess that all I saw was ugliness, and that the world repelled me? Would I be told “Yes, but that is not the world I made; I made a world where you could experience my wonders as a practice for enjoying what is here! I made a world where you could exercise your muscles of cooperation with Me so that your experience here would be embellished. And you passed that up because of a few piles of junk someone else threw into the gallery? Did you think so little of what I put there that you ignored it in favor of trash? And if you saw trash in My House, why didn’t you do something to clean it up, instead of whining about a little bit of distraction? Am I and my Works so small in your estimation as to be overshadowed by the mistakes of men, whom by the way areall still my Children, and whom I Love?”

Anyway, that is the sort of conversation I imagine, and why I really put a lot of energy into appreciation and service. And the more of those that I do, the more beautiful and wondrous things get. I open gifts from God every day! I hope one day to say “I love these; Thank you so much!!!” And I hope to be told “They are yours now and forever; you earned them by devotion to Me even in the midst of distractions. You steered by the lovely light of my Star, and not by the turbulence of the sea. Welcome home!”

Eat, drink, and be merry, if you think you must, and don’t forget to smell the Spring flowers. You guys are the “normal” ones here, I’m clearly the oddball.

Remember my post and my observations of this world. Someday you may come to value them!

 

[fhansen]

What more can I say but that it has been shown in research that depressed people have a more accurate interpretation of the world around them. Sorry I do not have a reference for this. I have been away from the field for some time.

Yes, we’re in exile here on earth, needing to return home. But the “meatbot” notion is totally out of sync with Catholic teaching on the nature and value of man and, I would guess, may well be symptomatic of depression, rather being a more accurate understanding of our true selves.

 

[antroji]

OK, then, I have to credit you with the integrity of your own understanding. Would you then elaborate about in what manner or area that understanding is more accurate, and what “accurate” means to you? And in any case, I think we all owe you a vote of thanks for giving us an opportunity to express some important beliefs and perspectives, as well as to learn.

And fhansen speaks rightly.

And I am sorry, but whatever high regard I have for the Virgin Mary, that particular piece is one of the most maudlin, depressing, and un-gracefull group of words ever aimed at one who deserves devotion. I say that because it accepts a victimized condition not reflecting the state of someone who has accepted the Grace of Salvation and is already doing the work of holiness as best they can. Should we not ask for encouragement and guidance? Of course we should. But not from the stance of exiles, Rather it ought be from the standpoint of soldiers already wearing the panoply of Light. And if you don’t think you are wearing that, look again. Perhaps you missed something? Look as well to Archangel Michael. I raise my daisho of tongue and action beside him to the best of my ability.

 

[5tunate]

Hi RS,

I’m kind of bouncing around here, looking at related threads, and I found this post by you at Souls and Neuroscience:

Focus your attention inward and you may become aware of the nonphysical reality of your innermost being – the seat of consciousness, which is also your soul. (You will need to focus beyond the self here.) What is human consciousness, and how is it produced? The answers to this great mystery have never been discovered. Is your innermost being merely an artifact – a kind of illusion that is somehow a product of your human brain, as neuroscience theory suggests? Where does the picture from the screen of a television set originate? Would it not be foolish to think it was a product of the television set itself? Similarly, might we be foolish simply to assume that our innermost being originates from, and is thus merely a product of, the human brain? (Also, remember that the quality of the picture is dependent upon the purity of the (name removed by moderator)ut signal and the working condition of the television set, and that the soul of a television has an existence of its own even when the set is turned off!)

Grasp unto the deep religious meaning in knowing that your innermost being is spiritual, and not physical. Think again about the story of creation, and take a closer look at the world around you!

Note: I’m not talking memory here, which may exists in the brain, but the spirituality of human consciousness and cognition.

I would state it in a slightly but not significantly different way. But I would also disagree with you about “The answers to this great mystery have never been discovered.” I must ask you if you have read and practiced the repeatable thought experiments as proposed by the very numerous proponents of non dualism from before Jesus to the present day? If you have, I have to wonder how you can reconcile the above statement with your numerous ones in this thread? I’m no expert on depression, but there seems to be a disparity here. The only “depression” I’ve found associated with the paradigm you put forth above is that most people, because of whatever limiting factors they choose to accept, don’t get it.

 

[grannymh]

What more can I say but that it has been shown in research that depressed people have a more accurate interpretation of the world around them. Sorry I do not have a reference for this. I have been away from the field for some time.

Tiny clarification – my post on this thread did not deal with depression.

 

[Robert_Sock]

OK, then, I have to credit you with the integrity of your own understanding. Would you then elaborate about in what manner or area that understanding is more accurate, and what “accurate” means to you? And in any case, I think we all owe you a vote of thanks for giving us an opportunity to express some important beliefs and perspectives, as well as to learn.

And fhansen speaks rightly.

And I am sorry, but whatever high regard I have for the Virgin Mary, that particular piece is one of the most maudlin, depressing, and un-gracefull group of words ever aimed at one who deserves devotion. I say that because it accepts a victimized condition not reflecting the state of someone who has accepted the Grace of Salvation and is already doing the work of holiness as best they can. Should we not ask for encouragement and guidance? Of course we should. But not from the stance of exiles, Rather it ought be from the standpoint of soldiers already wearing the panoply of Light. And if you don’t think you are wearing that, look again. Perhaps you missed something? Look as well to Archangel Michael. I raise my daisho of tongue and action beside him to the best of my ability.

The study I’m referring to found that depressed people tended to have more accurate ratings of how others think and feel. However, from my own experience I feel these results can be generalized to the larger world as a whole, especially that dealing with religious experiences. I feel like a case study of unique experiences that cannot be ignored.

I guess we all pick and choose when it comes to religion (or science). I love Hail Holy Queen! It speaks to me in ways beyond compare. It’s taken right from the third chapter of Genesis. How can anybody ignore that Adam and Eve and all of their descendants were banished from the Garden of Eden? This chapter was written for depressed people, such as myself!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi RS,

I’m kind of bouncing around here, looking at related threads, and I found this post by you at Souls and Neuroscience:

I would state it in a slightly but not significantly different way. But I would also disagree with you about “The answers to this great mystery have never been discovered.” I must ask you if you have read and practiced the repeatable thought experiments as proposed by the very numerous proponents of non dualism from before Jesus to the present day? If you have, I have to wonder how you can reconcile the above statement with your numerous ones in this thread? I’m no expert on depression, but there seems to be a disparity here. The only “depression” I’ve found associated with the paradigm you put forth above is that most people, because of whatever limiting factors they choose to accept, don’t get it.

Yes, I remember writing that. It was based on my own experiences that promote the mind-body split, dualism. I’m quite religious and I believe that our innermost spiritual thoughts come from afar. No, sorry, but I never really read any of the literature on thought experiments dealing with non dualism. And, I posted so much here that I’m a little unclear which posts of mine on depression you’re referring to.

 

[StAnastasia]

Have you ever prayed the rosary and listen to Hail Holy Queen?

Yes, Robert, I know that prayer well! However, I’m still intrigued by your answers to my questions:

Being on Earth “in exile” implies that we came here from somewhere else that we lived before, and that we were expelled from that place. Are you arguing for the preexistence of humans before birth? If so, where were we before our conception? And why and by whom were we exiled, and by what mechanism did we get here on Earth?

StAnastasia

 

[fhansen]

Yes, Robert, I know that prayer well! However, I’m still intrigued by your answers to my questions:

Being on Earth “in exile” implies that we came here from somewhere else that we lived before, and that we were expelled from that place. Are you arguing for the preexistence of humans before birth? If so, where were we before our conception? And why and by whom were we exiled, and by what mechanism did we get here on Earth?

StAnastasia

The idea of our being in exile comes from the banishment of man from the Garden of Eden-the separation from God that we’re all born into in this world. And while our faith produces a rather dim vision of Him, it can’t compare to the homecoming we anticipate, strive, and thirst for which can only occur after this life.

 

[StAnastasia]

The idea of our being in exile comes from the banishment of man from the Garden of Eden-the separation from God that we’re all born into in this world. And while our faith produces a rather dim vision of Him, it can’t compare to the homecoming we anticipate, strive, and thirst for which can only occur after this life.

But that’s only one reading of the symbolism of the Genesis story. Not all of us see our life in this world as an “exile.”

 

[fhansen]

But that’s only one reading of the symbolism of the Genesis story. Not all of us see our life in this world as an “exile.”

Yes, that’s true. And likewise I’m sure not everyone sees themselves as being* lost*. And yet we don’t know where we came from, if anywhere, what our purpose here is, if anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere, outside of supernatural revelation.

In this world we’ll experience the evils of pain and suffering in a life culminating in death-along with goods such as joy, pleasure, beauty, love, etc. Some will have to endure more hardships while other less-this world can mete out incredible levels of suffering. In any case, I believe we’re here to learn, in a world effectively cut off from God, where man’s will reigns for all practical purposes, just how much we need Him in order to “have life and life more abundantly”. In order to develop a hunger and thirst for more than this world can offer-to come to recognize ourselves as naked and impoverished compared to the glory and richness He’s always desired to adorn man in.

Perhaps “Hail Holy Queen” was penned and appreciated by people who were living in a time and place where this difference was more obvious than it is for many of us now-for whom the term “exile” was easier to apply to their conditions. But in the end I believe we’re all like Prodigals, needing to take a look around to see the relative squalor we live in-so we can run back to the Father who’s been waiting patiently with open arms for our return.

 

[StAnastasia]

Yes, that’s true. And likewise I’m sure not everyone sees themselves as being* lost*. And yet we don’t know where we came from, if anywhere, what our purpose here is, if anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere, outside of supernatural revelation.

True, but that does not mean we have to take a dismal view of our situation, as if we are “in exile.”

In this world we’ll experience the evils of pain and suffering in a life culminating in death-along with goods such as joy, pleasure, beauty, love, etc. Some will have to endure more hardships while other less-this world can mete out incredible levels of suffering. In any case.

Is the glass half empty, or half full? It’s a matter of perspective.

I believe we’re here to learn, in a world effectively cut off from God, where man’s will reigns for all practical purposes, just how much we need Him in order to “have life and life more abundantly”. In order to develop a hunger and thirst for more than this world can offer-to come to recognize ourselves as naked and impoverished compared to the glory and richness He’s always desired to adorn man in.

I don’t see the world as “effectively cut off from God.”

As Hopkins says, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God. The writings of Hopkins, Dickinson, Teilhard de Chardin, Hewlett and Peters, Hess, Rahner, and countless mystices testify to the presence of God in life and in nature. As the Qur’an beautifully expresses it, “God is closer to us than our jugular vein.”

 

[StAnastasia]

I guess we all pick and choose when it comes to religion (or science). I love Hail Holy Queen! It speaks to me in ways beyond compare. It’s taken right from the third chapter of Genesis. How can anybody ignore that Adam and Eve and all of their descendants were banished from the Garden of Eden? This chapter was written for depressed people, such as myself!

If the Genesis story had been written by people living in less harsh conditions than the Ancient Near East (e.g., Tahiti) it might reflect a more positive impression of human life. “Banishment” is not a theme universal to the world’s creation myths. Many creation stories interpret humans as integrally part of nature, and they resonate better with me than does a story of banishment from e perfect garden.

StAnastasia

 

[Robert_Sock]

If the Genesis story had been written by people living in less harsh conditions than the Ancient Near East (e.g., Tahiti) it might reflect a more positive impression of human life. “Banishment” is not a theme universal to the world’s creation myths.

If you do not accept banishment from within the third chapter of Genesis and do not take into account Hail Holy Queen, is it any wonder we disagree? There is probably nothing more we can do to reconcile our beliefs.

Many creation stories interpret humans as integrally part of nature, and they resonate better with me than does a story of banishment from e perfect garden.

What sort of creation stories are you speaking about? Because this is a Catholic form, and you say that you are Catholic, should we not stick with the Catholic story of creation from within Genesis?

 

[fhansen]

As Hopkins says, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God. The writings of Hopkins, Dickinson, Teilhard de Chardin, Hewlett and Peters, Hess, Rahner, and countless mystices testify to the presence of God in life and in nature. As the Qur’an beautifully expresses it, “God is closer to us than our jugular vein.”

Well, that’s easy to say, and, of course, we can certainly deduce Gods existence/presence. And as believers we know we can’t even “live and move and have our being” without Him and we experience Him in a variety of ways. We know that the kingdom of God is in our midst.

But we also live amidst disease, mental illness, mass genocide, rape, torture-the latter being evils committed by man. And victims of such evils certainly know we’re not living in Eden or heaven. God remains “hidden” to a large extent, for now. This is why St Paul tells us that “now we see as through a glass darkly, *then *we’ll see face to face”. And 1 Cor 2, quoting Isaiah tells us:

No eye has seen,
No ear has heard,
No mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love Him.

Otherwise the Beatific Vision wouldn’t really have much to offer, relatively speaking, would it? But as it is, those who love God have an infinitely awesome, ineffably soul-satiating beatitude to look forward to.

 

[StAnastasia]

If you do not accept banishment from within the third chapter of Genesis and do not take into account Hail Holy Queen, is it any wonder we disagree? There is probably nothing more we can do to reconcile our beliefs.

Robert, you’re probably right. I’m a glass half-full person.

What sort of creation stories are you speaking about? Because this is a Catholic form, and you say that you are Catholic, should we not stick with the Catholic story of creation from within Genesis?

The Popol Vuh, Odin and Ymir, and thousands of creation stories from around the world. The Hebrew story is an interesting take on creation, and is theologically very important for us Catholics, but it is not the only perspective.

The Hail Holy Queen is a Medieval prayer, penned during a time when Europe was plunged in the throes of the devastating Black Death and myriad other plagues and calamities. When many people found themselves mourning and weeping much of the time, it is not surprising that their spiritual perspective could reflect this rather dismal and anti-worldly view.

It may be a matter of temperament, but I prefer Christian spiritualities that are more optimistic and world-affirming. Have you read much of the poetry of Gerard Manley Hopkins?

StAnastasia