Are we 'clean' or just 'covered'?

[cazayoux]

Hello

I’ve had non-Catholic Christians give a different idea of the forgiving of sins than I was used to.
Their languages seemed to me to suggest that having our sins forgiven is like Jesus ‘covering’ us. Like we are still the dirt that we are, but are covered in white, so that our sins just are not ‘seen’.

I am sorry if I’m misremembering or misrepresenting my friends.

From the Mass readings yesterday …

Eph 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

This language, to me, is saying that we should not just be covered dirt, but actually blameless.
Not the same dirt we were before, but new (renewed)!

I’m curious what non-Catholics that hold the view of being ‘covered’ think of these verses and how to square it.

Cheers!

michel

 

[gookykookypig]

If that is the case, then they must undergo the cleansing of purgatory to cleanse the dung-heap they had within.

No, seriously, when we are forgiven, the main filth is removed. What remains is the mark that sin had left to us, that is, the consequence of a temporal punishment. Just as the boat’s hull can be packed by barnacles, and when they are removed, barnacle stains and marks still remains, that must be removed by intense work. The same with our sins.

And seriously, the blood of Christ washes away sins, not clot and clump around them.

 

[neophyte]

Hello

I’ve had non-Catholic Christians give a different idea of the forgiving of sins than I was used to.
Their languages seemed to me to suggest that having our sins forgiven is like Jesus ‘covering’ us. Like we are still the dirt that we are, but are covered in white, so that our sins just are not ‘seen’.

I am sorry if I’m misremembering or misrepresenting my friends…

Nope, you’ve got it quite right. That’s a very common understanding among non-catholics, the idea that we are not infused by Christ’s righteousness but that it’s merely credited to us. Luther said something about us being snow-covered dung heaps".

It’s like God tells himself that we’re clean and pretends that it’s true, even though we’re really still dirty. Gee, just what I need: a god who lies to himself about my condition and doesn’t do anything to actually change me! No wonder I had a complex as a Protestant!

 

[VociMike]

What would a good father do for his dirty, sweaty children? Just wrap them in a white sheet and pretend they weren’t dirty and sweaty, or actually clean them up?

I mean, duh!

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello

I’ve had non-Catholic Christians give a different idea of the forgiving of sins than I was used to.
Their languages seemed to me to suggest that having our sins forgiven is like Jesus ‘covering’ us. Like we are still the dirt that we are, but are covered in white, so that our sins just are not ‘seen’.

I am sorry if I’m misremembering or misrepresenting my friends.

From the Mass readings yesterday …

Eph 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

This language, to me, is saying that we should not just be covered dirt, but actually blameless.
Not the same dirt we were before, but new (renewed)!

I’m curious what non-Catholics that hold the view of being ‘covered’ think of these verses and how to square it.

Cheers!

michel

Clean! Acts 22:16 "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ "

 

[Pax]

Romans 5:4

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The phrase “made righteous” is clearly ontological just as the fall is ontological.

We are truly cleansed.

 

[Christy_Beth]

In John 1:29 it quotes John the Baptist saying, “Behole the lamb of God who takes awaythe sin of the world!!”

How can anyone say that Jesus only covers our sins? It clearly says (at least to me) that He takes them away.

 

[cazayoux]

Moderator!

Should this thread be moved to non-Catholic Religions?

michel

 

[MarcoPolo]

Another way to understand that we are indeed cleaned when our sins our forgiven is as follows: Think of any Scripture passage in which Jesus physically heals someone, like in the story of the paralytic Mk 2:8-12. Jesus heals the paralytic and forgives his sins. You see how Jesus proved to the audience that the man’s spiritual affliction had been healed by showing the audience that He could heal the man physically.

When Jesus healed physically—the person is actually healed! It’s not a cover-up where Jesus pretends the guy is not paralyzed anymore. Jesus is also the doctor of the spiritually ill.*Luke 5:31-32 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”*So when Jesus heals someone sins, is He going to heal the person for real? Yes. Whenever He healed someone physically, what He was really teaching us is how He heals us for real spiritually when our sins our forgiven.

 

[cazayoux]

Another way to understand that we are indeed cleaned when our sins our forgiven is as follows: Think of any Scripture passage in which Jesus physically heals someone, like in the story of the paralytic Mk 2:8-12. Jesus heals the paralytic and forgives his sins. You see how Jesus proved to the audience that the man’s spiritual affliction had been healed by showing the audience that He could heal the man physically.

When Jesus healed physically—the person is actually healed! It’s not a cover-up where Jesus pretends the guy is not paralyzed anymore. Jesus is also the doctor of the spiritually ill.Luke 5:31-32 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."So when Jesus heals someone sins, is He going to heal the person for real? Yes. Whenever He healed someone physically, what He was really teaching us is how He heals us for real spiritually when our sins our forgiven.

Great point Marco!!
I’ll definitely remember this one.

michel

 

[Pax]

Another way to understand that we are indeed cleaned when our sins our forgiven is as follows: Think of any Scripture passage in which Jesus physically heals someone, like in the story of the paralytic Mk 2:8-12. Jesus heals the paralytic and forgives his sins. You see how Jesus proved to the audience that the man’s spiritual affliction had been healed by showing the audience that He could heal the man physically.

When Jesus healed physically—the person is actually healed! It’s not a cover-up where Jesus pretends the guy is not paralyzed anymore. Jesus is also the doctor of the spiritually ill.Luke 5:31-32 Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."So when Jesus heals someone sins, is He going to heal the person for real? Yes. Whenever He healed someone physically, what He was really teaching us is how He heals us for real spiritually when our sins our forgiven.

Good one!