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gama232
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The World, as the term is used by some Christians, is constantly evangelizing a mostly false set of beliefs.
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childinthefaith
Guest
Of course I agree with that statement. However, there’s a time when it is ok for us to step in and explain that the false beliefs are false. I think perhaps we need to do so more often than we typically do. Yet, I find that I get in “hot water” frequently for speaking what’s on my mind regarding what is right and what is wrong.The World, as the term is used by some Christians, is constantly evangelizing a mostly false set of beliefs
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gama232
Guest
The Church will tell you, factually, what is wrong in the United States and in the West in general. I lived through decades of active propaganda. What that means is Hippies promoting immoral living and illegal drugs in the 1960s. The promotion of contraception and abortion through 1972. The US Supreme Court legalizing abortion in 1973. That is the false foundation followed by large amounts of money being spent on buildings and printing and people for Adult Bookstores in the 1970s. Who needed that? Who asked for that? No one. It was meant to get normal people addicted to porn.
Fast forward to today. People are so convinced that bad/wrong activities are OK that they jump on anyone who says the opposite. That anger, or ‘hot water,’ is a defense against feeling guilty. Real guilt would lead to conviction, self-conviction.
Fast forward to today. People are so convinced that bad/wrong activities are OK that they jump on anyone who says the opposite. That anger, or ‘hot water,’ is a defense against feeling guilty. Real guilt would lead to conviction, self-conviction.
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gama232
Guest
It’s more than that. I heard a priest on Catholic radio tell his men’s group that. If the mainstream media can promote immorality 24/7 and bad behavior, we can act like humans with natural hearts. And we can engage our neighbor. A neighbor who hears bad/wrong constantly through his TV, his radio and his phone. We are meant to live in a community of persons.
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gama232
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That’s right. And whose message is floating around in people’s heads right now? Answer: Not the Church’s. The mainstream media wants to convince you - yes, you - that bad/wrong living is A-OK. Do you want that? You may think you don’t but every single day — Bad? Wrong? It’s not bad or wrong! Trust us!!!
Trust who? Decide who you want to trust. Living a Godly life depends on it.
Trust who? Decide who you want to trust. Living a Godly life depends on it.
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gama232
Guest
1960s. Hippies. “Don’t shove your religion down my throat!!!”
Yeah, I know. Catholics need the same so-called freedom of speech so that the truth can overcome the lies being spread among the people daily.
All the Hippies had was anger. They were all about getting their way. Like 5 year olds in Adult bodies. ‘I want my porn, my loose women and my dope. And you religious types can shut up! I won’t listen to sound advice!’ Now kids are being exposed to what?
Yeah, I know. Catholics need the same so-called freedom of speech so that the truth can overcome the lies being spread among the people daily.
All the Hippies had was anger. They were all about getting their way. Like 5 year olds in Adult bodies. ‘I want my porn, my loose women and my dope. And you religious types can shut up! I won’t listen to sound advice!’ Now kids are being exposed to what?
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EndTimes
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Yes… And I was one of them - along with one of the very few who back when purchased the 16 Docs of Vat II - and actually read themVatican 2 set the stage for what seems like an explosion of lay theologians; apologists, and to a perhaps extent, lay evangelists…
The dissemination of Vat II - was usurped by dissident faciliators - who bas-tardized Vat II
in complete disobedience to the required NORMS of Vatican II - as per [Sacrosanctum Concilium]
The Pre- and Post- Vat II Church - differs in some alarming manners…
Pre-Vat II - Filled with Piety, Quietude, Positiveness, Love, Strong Attendance, High Vocations, Respect - but Alas, a very Problematic Complacency which was only first realized via the Lens of Understanding the Negatives after a different Legion of Problems entered in - during the Post Vat II Era.
Post Vat II… Dissident Theology arose - and created problems EXACTLY because YES the average Catholic was… not overly Familiar with (aka from my experiences - quite IGNORANT)
… Jesus’ entire GOSPEL (Et Cet) along with any Magisterium - especially Vat II;
thus making them easy marks for false shepherding. .
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gama232
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Not true at all. Since I saw all of that in real time. Here’s what happened. Wolves in sheep’s clothing appeared in our quiet, peaceful, no need to lock our doors at night, neighborhoods. We, as Catholics, were taught to welcome strangers. They abused our trust. Tried to lead us down false paths. Brought illegal drugs into our neighborhoods and schools and colleges. There were zero "new or different legion of problems’ aside from that. The radicals got into our schools. I was in high school when one kid, who lived with his girlfriend, asked me to hold an envelope. What was in it? An illegal drug. I refused. I reminded him about Church teaching about living with a woman outside of marriage.
Meanwhile, dissidents began wrecking the Church, especially Catholic education, from the inside. Bad catechesis. How did that happen? For years, it was taught correctly, then one year, not? Did someone suddenly forget? I don’t think so. I saw all of this.
We were highly educated. Don’t try to pin a false interpretation on those who were taught correctly.
Meanwhile, dissidents began wrecking the Church, especially Catholic education, from the inside. Bad catechesis. How did that happen? For years, it was taught correctly, then one year, not? Did someone suddenly forget? I don’t think so. I saw all of this.
We were highly educated. Don’t try to pin a false interpretation on those who were taught correctly.
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EndTimes
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As did I … And Agree with most of what you’ve said…I saw all of that in real time.
Yet I disagree on this note –
Several years after (1965) Post Vat II Catholics were divided into two main groups = which mirrored that of the Global Counter-Cultural Secular World - Liberals opposed to any authority - and Convervatives who were ‘bewildered’ and 'displeased" . and also - those who fled the Church - some of whom becoming Traditionalists, some who became Protestants - and some who simply were Fallen …
Many Catholics had Bibles at home - gathering dust
I was my Parish’s “Vat II” Expert - and was on the Liturgy Committee…
No one else even owned a copy of Vat II - let alone crack open a page - let alone read any of it.
Yes - Radicals overtook altars / the sanctuary / the Seminaries - Easily.
Come say - 1980’s … It was not easy to locate any orthodox Diocese…
Today? Who’s running the show?
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gama232
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What else could be expected? There was confusion because confusion – and division – was promoted. Persons unknown removed statues and communion/altar rails, among other things, and Vatican II did not even mention anything like that. Persons unknown at the time, did this in 1967:
You were the Vatican II expert? I suggest you look at the start dates for anti-family groups in the United States. Vatican II ends at the end of 1965. The National Organization for Women forms in June 1966. Vatican II was the cover story for the problems of the period and is still used that way today.
Bibles gathering dust? How about 1973 and the closing hymn at Church is Let It Be by the Beatles?
If I wanted to wreck the Catholic Church in the West, I would “guide” Catholic education in the wrong direction. I would make sure the new mass was done wrong. I would have no explanation to give to parishioners about missing statues and so on. Where is the tabernacle? Uh, it got moved to a side chapel? Why? Uh… uh… Now pastors are requiring its return to the altar at the end of the center aisle where it belongs.
What is happening in many Catholic churches in the US? Those things that were removed in the 1960s have been restored. The Traditional Latin Mass is bearing good fruit:
Traditional Catholics who lived through all of this and survived in their faith, knew what had to be done. Yes, strangers appeared in our neighborhoods giving us what they called a better way. It was not. Definitely not. It was wrong and it’s being promoted as good right now. Fortunately, Orthodox beliefs are coming back. Not in the ‘big numbers’ way the media promotes but in a way that shows Jesus guards His bride as He promised. That is the reason for hope.
You were the Vatican II expert? I suggest you look at the start dates for anti-family groups in the United States. Vatican II ends at the end of 1965. The National Organization for Women forms in June 1966. Vatican II was the cover story for the problems of the period and is still used that way today.
Bibles gathering dust? How about 1973 and the closing hymn at Church is Let It Be by the Beatles?
If I wanted to wreck the Catholic Church in the West, I would “guide” Catholic education in the wrong direction. I would make sure the new mass was done wrong. I would have no explanation to give to parishioners about missing statues and so on. Where is the tabernacle? Uh, it got moved to a side chapel? Why? Uh… uh… Now pastors are requiring its return to the altar at the end of the center aisle where it belongs.
What is happening in many Catholic churches in the US? Those things that were removed in the 1960s have been restored. The Traditional Latin Mass is bearing good fruit:
Traditional Catholics who lived through all of this and survived in their faith, knew what had to be done. Yes, strangers appeared in our neighborhoods giving us what they called a better way. It was not. Definitely not. It was wrong and it’s being promoted as good right now. Fortunately, Orthodox beliefs are coming back. Not in the ‘big numbers’ way the media promotes but in a way that shows Jesus guards His bride as He promised. That is the reason for hope.
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yankeesouth
Guest
I wonder why this always seems to be tagged on? Atheists and protestants can do good works also. You could be volunteering right next to them and they would leave without hearing the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church. Almost all of the apostles died evangelizing and I don’t think it was because of how they lived their lives.
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gama232
Guest
It appears to me that discouraging the idea is the goal.
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gama232
Guest
I think there is a reluctance to evangelize because of a fear of getting into hot water with whoever. Sure, living a good Christian life matters. Being a good role model matters. God gave me a number of them when I was a boy. These were neighbors, not family, and they mattered in our community. And our community consisted of non-Catholic Christians as well. We got along. We had shared values. We lived our lives in a similar way.
Today, that needs to return. It should not be hidden. Who said, Don’t hide your light under a bushel?
Matthew 5:15
I was on another forum to complain about marijuana being legalized. One reply pointed out that ‘you people don’t have the influence you once had.’ Let me be clear: I’m not interested in forcing anyone to do anything, but I am compelled to pass on the truth, especially at a time when bad/wrong things are presented as good.
Today, that needs to return. It should not be hidden. Who said, Don’t hide your light under a bushel?
Matthew 5:15
I was on another forum to complain about marijuana being legalized. One reply pointed out that ‘you people don’t have the influence you once had.’ Let me be clear: I’m not interested in forcing anyone to do anything, but I am compelled to pass on the truth, especially at a time when bad/wrong things are presented as good.
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yankeesouth
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I think hearing, 'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” influenced them quite a bit.
Of course we live Catholic lives but again, non believers can also do good works. The apostles weren’t martyred for their good works. I just think saying…
Of course we live Catholic lives but again, non believers can also do good works. The apostles weren’t martyred for their good works. I just think saying…
suffices.If you are a Baptized Catholic you are called to evangelize at every opportunity you can
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otjm
Guest
I am well aware of the Land O’ Lakes decision, as I graduated from “Notre Dame West” (U of Portland). Right, wrong or indifferent, this was the thinking at the time:
In 1987, Sister Brigid Driscoll, former president of Marymount College in New York, offered a defense of the “Land O’ Lakes” mentality:
“In the 1960s and early 1970s, most Catholic colleges severed even tenuous ties to the Church…
“We became independent and named lay trustees because of accreditation, the increased sophistication of higher education as a major enterprise and because of the demands of growth…
“Those decisions meant a windfall for the schools a few years later when the federal government offered financial aid to independent colleges…"
Hindsight, which is always 20-20 proved that wrong. Hindsight. We can kvetch all day and night that it was a terrible decision (and I would be saying exactly that) . but it was subsequent decisionbs which proved the isue wrong.
But not intentional.
In 1987, Sister Brigid Driscoll, former president of Marymount College in New York, offered a defense of the “Land O’ Lakes” mentality:
“In the 1960s and early 1970s, most Catholic colleges severed even tenuous ties to the Church…
“We became independent and named lay trustees because of accreditation, the increased sophistication of higher education as a major enterprise and because of the demands of growth…
“Those decisions meant a windfall for the schools a few years later when the federal government offered financial aid to independent colleges…"
Hindsight, which is always 20-20 proved that wrong. Hindsight. We can kvetch all day and night that it was a terrible decision (and I would be saying exactly that) . but it was subsequent decisionbs which proved the isue wrong.
As to that comment, I disagree. It was led by progressives, but no one was talking about “destroying” Catholic education. That they were wrong is clear; but intentional? Nope. Misguided, wrong-headed, yes.It was all intended to destroy Catholic Education from the inside.
But not intentional.
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gama232
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The Newman Society cuts them some slack but it was a disaster spanning 50 years. That said, back to bad catechesis in Catholic schools. After years of doing it right, the next day, I forgot? No. Not at all. By 1970, Latin language class was dropped at my Catholic high school. By 1973, Sex Education. I can tell you the nuns weren’t happy about that. So, there is no – zero – defense for most of those things.
Seriously, what is a progressive? As in, we want to do what secular society is doing? That’s not progress. No way. I watched things get gradually worse every year. Someone was at work.
Seriously, what is a progressive? As in, we want to do what secular society is doing? That’s not progress. No way. I watched things get gradually worse every year. Someone was at work.
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otjm
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Wherever Christ is, the devil is not far behind.Post Vat II… Dissident Theology arose - and created problems EXACTLY because YES the average Catholic was… not overly Familiar with (aka from my experiences - quite IGNORANT)
… Jesus’ entire GOSPEL (Et Cet) along with any Magisterium - especially Vat II;
thus making them easy marks for false shepherding. .
I am going to presume that you are not indicating that Vatican 2 was a mistake; I never presume to tell the Holy Spirit what is right or wrong.
Just as teenagers are all too likely to go hog wild when they get away from a tightly structured authoritarian family, so were Catholics who rebelled to the juridical approach of the Church prior to the Council. And most of that blow-off was in the 1970’s and 1980’s. I am thoroughly aware of the goofiness and craziness that went on then but that was 2 generations ago. It is time we all quit reciting the “spirit of Vatican 2” bit that ruled those first two decades, and wake up to the fact that the Church is doing far, far better now than it was then.
That does not mean that we have not lost people to secularism and a whole bunch of other i"isms" in North America and Western Europe (which was already in serious shape by the start of V2. World wide, the Church is thriving. Europe and America suck wind, in part because of what has been evolving for 2 centuries outside of religion.
There is a phenomenal amount of extremely positive work of the Holy Spirit in the Church in the US; I will repeat: theologians true to the Magisterium, producing fantastic works for the laity; apologists by the dozens on the airwaves, YouTube, books and DVDs; a resurgence of 24 hour Adoration (which was not widely practiced before the Council).
So, one can dwell on what was occurring 30 or 40 years ago, or one can recognize what is occurring now.
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otjm
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You missed the main group - those who followed the Magisterium; did not buy into the progressives, and did not fall away, or otherwise fled the Church or fought the changes that were legitimately being made.Several years after (1965) Post Vat II Catholics were divided into two main groups = which mirrored that of the Global Counter-Cultural Secular World - Liberals opposed to any authority - and Convervatives who were ‘bewildered’ and 'displeased" . and also - those who fled the Church - some of whom becoming Traditionalists, some who became Protestants - and some who simply were Fallen …
Exactly, Right where they were on the coffee table, before Vatican 2.Many Catholics had Bibles at home - gathering dust
And how many bible studies were instituted after Vatican 2? Literally thousands, if not tens of thousands.
The Church is, through the guidance of the bishops. And it is active in the 17,000 +/- parishes throughout the US. And as point, this conversation is off topic.Today? Who’s running the show?
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otjm
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My answer to that is someone who thought that Vatican 2 did not go far enough.Seriously, what is a progressive?
The vast majority of Catholics were not progressives, nor were they Traditionalists; they were in the pews, starting to go to bible studies, attending conferences put on by apologists (I put on one conference for several combined parishes); and trying to follow Christ.
So did I; but instead of sitting and cussing under my breath, I got up and tried to do something; so I have been involved in RCIA for over 25 years, and Catholics Returning Home for over 10. And as I said, where ever Christ is, the devil is not far behind.I watched things get gradually worse every year. Someone was at work.
Let’s get back on topic, shall we?
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gama232
Guest
That is grossly inaccurate. What is happening now is that some are continuing with their faith and some are purging the poison from their veins, but a majority are not. That is very on topic because the West is quite poisoned by the current spirit of the age. That is why active evangelization needs to happen. Oh yes, I applaud those who are involved in helping the Church. I do not applaud the secular progressives who think they are getting away with 50 years of intentional wrongdoing. That is the basis of evangelizing today.
Evil changes its face often so that it can reemerge as the same old thing with a new face. Evolving? No, the same old evil.
Evil changes its face often so that it can reemerge as the same old thing with a new face. Evolving? No, the same old evil.
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