Are we fufilled Jews?

[snowman10]

My Religion Professor, a very intelligent Presbyterian minister from Princeton and Emory, said that Christians are not “fufilled Jews” at all. He also said that the church never said we were. I thought we were fufilled Jews since the Messiah came. Also, he says the Bible never teaches that we go directly to the heaven or hell when we die, but we await judgement in a “soul sleep”. This sounds contradictory to anything and everything I have ever heard. Is he wrong?

DU

 

[LoneRanger]

snowman10:

My Religion Professor, a very intelligent Presbyterian minister from Princeton and Emory, said that Christians are not “fufilled Jews” at all. He also said that the church never said we were. I thought we were fufilled Jews since the Messiah came. Also, he says the Bible never teaches that we go directly to the heaven or hell when we die, but we await judgement in a “soul sleep”. This sounds contradictory to anything and everything I have ever heard. Is he wrong?

DU

…fufilled, or maybe completed… i would have to agree…

…it’s a shame more “so-called” christians couldn’t be more understanding of their jewish brothers and sisters… they have paid a pretty high price throughout history for not believing as “we” do…

…God’s chosen people…

 

[chadwilliams]

snowman10:

My Religion Professor, a very intelligent Presbyterian minister from Princeton and Emory, said that Christians are not “fufilled Jews” at all. He also said that the church never said we were. I thought we were fufilled Jews since the Messiah came. Also, he says the Bible never teaches that we go directly to the heaven or hell when we die, but we await judgement in a “soul sleep”. This sounds contradictory to anything and everything I have ever heard. Is he wrong?

DU

I don’t think the Church has ever gone so far to say that Catholics are “fulfilled Jews”, but I’ve heard the phrase “the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the Jewish tradition” (or something like that) mentioned by some apologists. It is obviously the case. Think of the Apostles. They were all Jews and recognized Jesus as the Christ. Interestingly enough, I think that if all the Jews would have believed in Jesus, the Church would still have been called the Catholic Church, because it is truly Universal - for all people.

As a Presbyterian Minister, I don’t expect your professor to believe any Catholic Doctrine, even in regards to the Particular Judgement. Sounds like he is taking a Sola Scriptura stance, which isn’t surprising.

Upon our death, each of us will be judged individually to Happiness in Heaven, purification in Purgatory, or Eternity in Hell. This is the Particular Judgement.

At the General Judgement at the Second Coming of Christ, the entire Human Race will witness and know everyone else’s judgement. God will do this because of His Justice.

I can remember as a child being confused about this. It seemed like even if we were in Heaven, we’d be judged again at the Second Coming, but that isn’t true. Our eternal reward, or punishment, that we receive at the Particular Judgement remains with us at the General Judgement.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

chadwilliams:

I don’t think the Church has ever gone so far to say that Catholics are “fulfilled Jews”, but I’ve heard the phrase “the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of the Jewish tradition” (or something like that) mentioned by some apologists. It is obviously the case. Think of the Apostles. They were all Jews and recognized Jesus as the Christ. Interestingly enough, I think that if all the Jews would have believed in Jesus, the Church would still have been called the Catholic Church, because it is truly Universal - for all people.

As a Presbyterian Minister, I don’t expect your professor to believe any Catholic Doctrine, even in regards to the Particular Judgement. Sounds like he is taking a Sola Scriptura stance, which isn’t surprising.

Upon our death, each of us will be judged individually to Happiness in Heaven, purification in Purgatory, or Eternity in Hell. This is the Particular Judgement.

At the General Judgement at the Second Coming of Christ, the entire Human Race will witness and know everyone else’s judgement. God will do this because of His Justice.

I can remember as a child being confused about this. It seemed like even if we were in Heaven, we’d be judged again at the Second Coming, but that isn’t true. Our eternal reward, or punishment, that we receive at the Particular Judgement remains with us at the General Judgement.

This same issue is being discussed on a thread I started, here in the Apologetics forum. All the people who have responded to my posts have told me that the Catholic Church is “Judaism fulfilled.” Apparently, the Catholic Church’s stance is that the Catholic faith is a continuation of Judaism; a fulfilled version of the faith. However, no one on here has ever told me that Christians are fulfilled Jews. They have, however, referred to Jews as brothers and sisters. I’m Reform Jew, by the way.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

A “soul sleep?”
Oh, so THAT’S why the Blessed Mother and the saints can’t “hear” our prayers, I suppose.
Imagine how silly our early Christian martyrs were for asking the dead to pray for us to God. Gee, it took 1500 years though before the “wise” ones like your professor clued us in. Even though our souls no longer have a body, somehow they “sleep”, and somehow they do so “in physical time” yet not apparently in a “physical space”.

Oh how thankful I am to be a Catholic and not have to put up with 10,000 + “interpretations” of every single word in the Bible, compounded daily. . .

 

[Lovez4God]

LoneRanger:

…fufilled, or maybe completed… i would have to agree…

…it’s a shame more “so-called” christians couldn’t be more understanding of their jewish brothers and sisters… they have paid a pretty high price throughout history for not believing as “we” do…

…God’s chosen people…

No it has not been completed. This is still the age of the gentiles.
"Behold I will send you Elias the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And he shall turn the heart of the children to the fathers; lest I come and strike the earth with anathema.’ (Mal. 4:5-6). ‘Elias is indeed to come and will restore all things.’ (Mt. 4:5-6) True Israel is now spiritual; the material-minded and worldly Jews are rejected, as symbolized in the measuring of the Temple. (Apoc. 11:1-2)
"The period of great distress coincides with the ‘Major Apostle’ of 2Thes. 2:3 and with the end of the "Times of the Gentiles.’
“At this juncture there is place for the conversion of the Jews(as a whole) (see Rom. 11:13-25). 'A partial blindness only has fallen Israel until the full member of the Gentiles should enter, and thus all Israel should be saved.” (Rom. 11:25.)
Elias, Jew by birth, will be charged with the conversion of the Jews. (Ecclesiasticus 48:10)
Only then can we hope that their own fathers would be able to convert their hearts. For that same reason God had preserved 'them for the last times. So everything must be fulfilled.

 

[chadwilliams]

Jew_Man_73:

This same issue is being discussed on a thread I started, here in the Apologetics forum. All the people who have responded to my posts have told me that the Catholic Church is “Judaism fulfilled.” Apparently, the Catholic Church’s stance is that the Catholic faith is a continuation of Judaism; a fulfilled version of the faith. However, no one on here has ever told me that Christians are fulfilled Jews. They have, however, referred to Jews as brothers and sisters. I’m Reform Jew, by the way.

Because not all Christians hold the doctrine of the Catholic Church. There are over 30,000 different Christian “denominations” each claiming to have the truth, but all differing on some point. The Catholic Church has remained since Jesus established it here on earth in Matt 16:18.

 

[teresa613]

As I was living as an orthodox Jew for 3 years before reverting to Catholicism must say only “Jewish Catholics” are fullfilled Jews as they know what had to be fullfilled. If you live a strict life after halacha, you would know and even more recognize the real fullfillment of Christ.

Take the song of Simeon says everything:

revelation for the gentiles and glory to your people Israel:

Jesus was the first revelation to the gentile as they did not accept the Torah at Sinai, but for us Jews it is glory as everything got gave us on Sinai was given now to the whole world.

Pax,
Brigitte

 

[Jew_Man_73]

chadwilliams:

Because not all Christians hold the doctrine of the Catholic Church. There are over 30,000 different Christian “denominations” each claiming to have the truth, but all differing on some point. The Catholic Church has remained since Jesus established it here on earth in Matt 16:18.

Ok, I’m a little confused. So does the Catholic Church teach that it is Judaism fulfilled, but not Protestant churches? Does the Catholic Church teach that it’s followers are fulfilled Jews? By the way, I’ve researched church history, and you’re right. Even I realize that the Catholic Church is the original church from the time of the New Testament. I don’t understand how Protestant churches, with all their denominations, think they are.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

teresa613:

As I was living as an orthodox Jew for 3 years before reverting to Catholicism must say only “Jewish Catholics” are fullfilled Jews as they know what had to be fullfilled. If you live a strict life after halacha, you would know and even more recognize the real fullfillment of Christ.

Take the song of Simeon says everything:

revelation for the gentiles and glory to your people Israel:

Jesus was the first revelation to the gentile as they did not accept the Torah at Sinai, but for us Jews it is glory as everything got gave us on Sinai was given now to the whole world.

Pax,
Brigitte

Thanks. G-d bless!

 

[chadwilliams]

Jew_Man_73:

Ok, I’m a little confused. So does the Catholic Church teach that it is Judaism fulfilled, but not Protestant churches? Does the Catholic Church teach that it’s followers are fulfilled Jews? By the way, I’ve researched church history, and you’re right. Even I realize that the Catholic Church is the original church from the time of the New Testament. I don’t understand how Protestant churches, with all their denominations, think they are.

I’ve never seen anywhere in any Church Fathers, Encyclicals, CCC, etc. state that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. Like I said, I’ve heard it stated by apologists such as you find on Catholic Answers or EWTN.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

chadwilliams:

I’ve never seen anywhere in any Church Fathers, Encyclicals, CCC, etc. state that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. Like I said, I’ve heard it stated by apologists such as you find on Catholic Answers or EWTN.

Ok, thanks.

 

[jimmytoes]

chadwilliams:

I’ve never seen anywhere in any Church Fathers, Encyclicals, CCC, etc. state that the Catholic Church is the fulfillment of Judaism. Like I said, I’ve heard it stated by apologists such as you find on Catholic Answers or EWTN.

Not a doctrine, or dogma or anything like that, but if Jesus and his bride the Church (New Covenant) is the Fulfillment of the Old Covenant (God and Israel), then perhaps this is where it comes from.

The Old Covenant is still in force, God does not nullify his family bonds. Yet the New Covenant is of necessity built on the Old.

Perhaps the theology discussed here will be taken up, developed and defined formally if there is too much misunderstanding of the topic among the faithful. but it’s not likely to be defined as an aid to interfaith dialogue; that might be presumptuous on our part to define dogmatically how someone else should see us.

Just musing.
Peace,
Jim

 

[jimmy]

snowman10:

My Religion Professor, a very intelligent Presbyterian minister from Princeton and Emory, said that Christians are not “fufilled Jews” at all. He also said that the church never said we were. I thought we were fufilled Jews since the Messiah came. Also, he says the Bible never teaches that we go directly to the heaven or hell when we die, but we await judgement in a “soul sleep”. This sounds contradictory to anything and everything I have ever heard. Is he wrong?

DU

Moses sure wasn’t in a soul sleep at the transfiguration.

 

[Jew_Man_73]

jimmytoes:

Not a doctrine, or dogma or anything like that, but if Jesus and his bride the Church (New Covenant) is the Fulfillment of the Old Covenant (God and Israel), then perhaps this is where it comes from.

The Old Covenant is still in force, God does not nullify his family bonds. Yet the New Covenant is of necessity built on the Old.

Perhaps the theology discussed here will be taken up, developed and defined formally if there is too much misunderstanding of the topic among the faithful. but it’s not likely to be defined as an aid to interfaith dialogue; that might be presumptuous on our part to define dogmatically how someone else should see us.

Just musing.
Peace,
Jim

Thanks for your insights. You’ve given me a better understanding of this.

 

[Ghosty]

This is actually a part of Christian teaching that hasn’t been touched on much until very recently. Read Romans 11 for the full detail on it. It wasn’t until modern times that the Catholic Church has really begun “unpacking” that particular chapter, so you only see this kind of terminology coming up recently.

Prior to modern times it was popular (though non-Doctrinal) thought among Catholics to view Christians as the replacement of Jews, rather than the fulfillment, or an add-on to Judaism. Just a cursory reading of Romans 11, however, will show that this view is untenable. Entire volumes could be written on WHY this aspect of Scripture was so over-looked, but it’s been getting a lot of attention at the hands of John Paul II and Ratzinger/Benedict XVI. It is largely based on this “back to Scripture” approach that the modern reaching out to Jews by Catholics has been theologically possible, and it’s a fascinating study in and of itself.

In short, you won’t find much old stuff on this, even though the roots of it, and even the direct teaching of it by Paul, goes back to the time of the Apostles. There aren’t any doctrines about it, but Paul’s words are very clear. This is actually a prime candidate as the kind of thing that the Church might come out and make a doctrinal statement on, given the teaching in Scripture and the misapplication and misunderstanding of it throughout history.

For now I’ll just say read Romans 11; it will answer this question very handily without even needing a lot of explaination. Ironically it’s some of the most blunt and straightforward writing in all of Scripture, IMO.

 

[mom_07]

Ghosty:

This is actually a part of Christian teaching that hasn’t been touched on much until very recently. Read Romans 11 for the full detail on it. It wasn’t until modern times that the Catholic Church has really begun “unpacking” that particular chapter, so you only see this kind of terminology coming up recently.

Prior to modern times it was popular (though non-Doctrinal) thought among Catholics to view Christians as the replacement of Jews, rather than the fulfillment, or an add-on to Judaism. Just a cursory reading of Romans 11, however, will show that this view is untenable. Entire volumes could be written on WHY this aspect of Scripture was so over-looked, but it’s been getting a lot of attention at the hands of John Paul II and Ratzinger/Benedict XVI. It is largely based on this “back to Scripture” approach that the modern reaching out to Jews by Catholics has been theologically possible, and it’s a fascinating study in and of itself.

In short, you won’t find much old stuff on this, even though the roots of it, and even the direct teaching of it by Paul, goes back to the time of the Apostles. There aren’t any doctrines about it, but Paul’s words are very clear. This is actually a prime candidate as the kind of thing that the Church might come out and make a doctrinal statement on, given the teaching in Scripture and the misapplication and misunderstanding of it throughout history.

For now I’ll just say read Romans 11; it will answer this question very handily without even needing a lot of explaination. Ironically it’s some of the most blunt and straightforward writing in all of Scripture, IMO.

Many would say that at the last supper Christ was speaking symbolically about the Eucharist. That he intended it to be a “memorial” until he returns. They would also say that it is “some of the most blunt and straightforward writing in all of Scripture”.

My point is that we need to need careful here. There is a heretical theology out there that teaches that Christians illegitimately "replaced " the Jews as God’s people. That when Christ returns He will be coming for Israel (the actual secular state) and for the Jews. Also He will be coming to “punish” Christians (most especially the Church) for “persecuting” His true chosen people (the Jews).

I know someone who has joined this sect. They believe Christ was the messiah (a great guy) but not God made flesh. They believe that the Israeli’s are God’s covenant people. They believe that Christians can be ‘saved" only by being "grafted’ into this “Israel”.

Some points I would like to make:

The Jews living today are no more Jewish than I born and raised in the U.S.A am still British. Israel as a people have been dispersed into the world (i.e. the gentiles), and though 14 million people around the world identify themselves as ethnically Jewish (Judah), I would say that (1) they don’t practice the faith that God laid down in the covenant, so they seem to have
some answering to do; And (2) their ethnicity is VERY likely, in all or virtually all cases to have been mixed with gentiles in marriages over the millennia.

For instance, If Christ is coming back to receive covenantal Jews, why aren’t they living the covenant? Where are all the rituals? Where are the sacrifices? Why not even talk about rebuilding the temple? After all, they have the land. Why are the large majority of the ethnically Jewish people living today either secularists or secular atheists?

The Church is the bride of Christ not some secular state. All of Israel (i.e. those who are worthy
of heaven) will be saved through the Church, through Jesus Christ.

Terri

 

[mom_07]

snowman10:

My Religion Professor, a very intelligent Presbyterian minister from Princeton and Emory, said that Christians are not “fufilled Jews” at all. He also said that the church never said we were. I thought we were fufilled Jews since the Messiah came. Also, he says the Bible never teaches that we go directly to the heaven or hell when we die, but we await judgement in a “soul sleep”. This sounds contradictory to anything and everything I have ever heard. Is he wrong?

DU

The Church is the bride of Christ and the fulfillment of the covenant with God (Christ as Messiah) Thus, as Christ adoring members we take part in that fulfillment of covenant. Those with Jewish heritage may also take part in that covenant in as much as they take part in the Church (the eternal sacrament of salvation).

The Church here on earth (still struggling with sin) is the Church Militant. Those in purgatory are the Church Suffering. The Church Triumphant are those who have triumphed over sin and are in heavenly glory. The Communion of Saints is the unity and co-operation of the Church Militant with the Church Triumphant (invoking their prayers and good works) and the Church suffering (aiding them with our prayers and aid).

In short, no one is “soul sleeping”.

 

[Ghosty]

Many would say that at the last supper Christ was speaking symbolically about the Eucharist. That he intended it to be a “memorial” until he returns. They would also say that it is “some of the most blunt and straightforward writing in all of Scripture”.

And, like the passage involving Romans, it couldn’t be more clear that Jesus was speaking literally. We don’t need the Magisterium to tell us this, it’s what all Christians believed for 1500 years without a doubt. People who twist that passage have an agenda against the Church. Just because people “think” something doesn’t give it equal weight; some people still think the Earth is flat, too, and we don’t need the Magisterium to correct them either.

My point is that we need to need careful here. There is a heretical theology out there that teaches that Christians illegitimately "replaced " the Jews as God’s people. That when Christ returns He will be coming for Israel (the actual secular state) and for the Jews. Also He will be coming to “punish” Christians (most especially the Church) for “persecuting” His true chosen people (the Jews).

Then they’d be completely ignoring what is said in Romans, which says directly that the Gentiles who have become Christians have become members of the People of Israel by adoption, and that we are simply waiting for the “remnant” of Jews to “return” (and it won’t happen until God is done bringing in as many Gentiles as will come). It’s spelled out literally in Romans.

For instance, If Christ is coming back to receive covenantal Jews, why aren’t they living the covenant? Where are all the rituals? Where are the sacrifices? Why not even talk about rebuilding the temple? After all, they have the land. Why are the large majority of the ethnically Jewish people living today either secularists or secular atheists?

There ARE still Jews practicing the Covenant, and there IS serious talk of rebuilding the Temple. Most ethnic Jews do not uphold the Covenant, but the Orthodox certainly do, almost to a fault. The fact that the Temple is destroyed does not in any way impede the Covenant; remember this wasn’t the first time it was destroyed and left rubble for over a generation. They celebrate the incomplete Covenant (and even THEY might say it’s incomplete since the Messiah hasn’t yet arrived, and that’s a big part of the Covenant, though they’d disagree that the Church is the complete Covenant), and they are very faithful to it. They are waiting for its completion, and Paul said directly and literally that this would be the case until the full number of Gentiles come into the Church, at which point they too would enter the Church and the Tree would be complete. For a Christian perspective, based on the writings of Paul, the Second Coming will indeed partially be for the “faithful remnant” of Jews, who will recognize Him as the Messiah for the first time. It’s going to be a huge party when we are reunited, I’m certain, not to even mention the fact that it will be the final Coming in Glory

Incidently, the Catechism says as much about practicing Jews being true to the aspects of the Covenant that they recognize. It even says that they have a special place among non-Christians, and that God still honors the Covenant with them. Indeed, if God DIDN’T still honor the Covenant with them, they would not exist even as an ethnic group.