Are we naturally bad?

[PumpkinSeed]

No. That’s simply not the case. Adam and Eve didn’t need to give into temptation. They were perfect–they had no excuse–that’s why it’s called sin. If someone does something out of mere weakness that is called a flaw not a sin. They broke faith with God out of disobedience not out of weakness. There have been others less perfect who were sorely tempted down through history that didn’t sin. Weakness is not admissible in this case.

If they were perfect living in a perfect world why would they want to disobey God anyways? I know the serpent says that it was the ‘tree of knowledge’, but why would they want to know everything? What would there have been to know? No history had started yet so what was the point? Sounds to me like they weren’t the brightest crayons in the box. I guess they didn’t think it through.

 

[bogeydogg]

No. That’s simply not the case. Adam and Eve didn’t need to give into temptation. They were perfect–they had no excuse–that’s why it’s called sin. If someone does something out of mere weakness that is called a flaw not a sin. They broke faith with God out of disobedience not out of weakness. There have been others less perfect who were sorely tempted down through history that didn’t sin. Weakness is not admissible in this case.

Absolutely. Remember Paul says that Eve was deceived and the implication of that is that Adam chose to sin. Considering that we are fallen in Adam and not Eve, even though her sin was first, I think the Church’s definition of mortal sin applies here because the intent of Adam in addition to the act makes the sin more egregious than Eve’s.

God Bless

 

[Della]

If they were perfect living in a perfect world why would they want to disobey God anyways? I know the serpent says that it was the ‘tree of knowledge’, but why would they want to know everything? What would there have been to know? No history had started yet so what was the point? Sounds to me like they weren’t the brightest crayons in the box. I guess they didn’t think it through.

The same could be said of Lucifer–the highest of the Archangels. The answer is free will. God has not created puppets, but creatures able to make decisions, even ones that contradict God’s will. He wanted Adam and Eve to love him for himself alone not just because they were perfect beings living in a perfect world. Instead, Adam and Eve chose to love what they thought they could gain first by wanting what God knew was best for them not to have, in Eve’s case, and secondly Adam loving his own life more than facing the consequences of his obligations towards his wife. The instant we love anything in place of God we make the same kind of mistakes and enter into sin.

bogeydogg:

Absolutely. Remember Paul says that Eve was deceived and the implication of that is that Adam chose to sin. Considering that we are fallen in Adam and not Eve, even though her sin was first, I think the Church’s definition of mortal sin applies here because the intent of Adam in addition to the act makes the sin more egregious than Eve’s.

Eve was deceived but she also looked on the apple with desire and that was her downfall. She certainly paid the price in what she lost and the extra burdens she had to take on. It was no picnic for either of them. But, they have been redeemed even though through them all of us were born with the stain of original sin, and the consequences that prevents us from obeying God perfectly. It’s why we so very much need the sacraments of the Church, yes?

 

[stevekehl]

A friend of mine made the statement “…we are all sinners by nature…” and I took exception. I said to him that we are all essentially good but are stained by Original Sin and then he replied that the bible says numerous times that we are filthy beings. This person is non-catholic. I then gave him the “created in God’s Image” quotation from Genesis and was further rebuffed. Are there other biblical references to the essential goodness of human nature?

We are not all essentially good. David was a man after God’s heart, yet he was a murderer and an adulterer. If all of human history doesn’t convince you of man’s propensity toward sin here are some verses for you.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Romans 3:9 What does all this mean? Does it mean that we Jews are better off than the Gentiles? No, it doesn’t! Jews, as well as Gentiles, are ruled by sin, just as I have said. 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

What was the tree of knowledge doing in the garden though? Why did God put it there if nobody was to take from it? And why didn’t he chop off that snakes head before it got to Eve?

 

[bogeydogg]

What was the tree of knowledge doing in the garden though? Why did God put it there if nobody was to take from it? And why didn’t he chop off that snakes head before it got to Eve?

You have misunderstood what the knowledge of good and evil is. The knowledge being spoken of is not a simple understanding of right and wrong, Adam and Eve an;ready had that or else God’s warning to them to not eat or face punishment would have been gibberish. If you do not understand right and wrong then you will understand punishment for wrongdoing either.

Rather knowledge spoken of is discernment, that is man in eating chose to decide for himself what was wrong and what was right rather than to rely on God. This discernment was withheld from them in that knew only the law of God but not the law of sin and death, under which we are born because of the curse. In taking the word of the serpent and his wife’s apparent non-death Adam chose to sin against God. Adam placed himself on God’s Throne by deciding what was right and wrong in place of God. Remember once again, we are fallen in Adam but his sin was not first, and the recognition of sin did not fall on them until Adam ate.

Why?

Because Adam’s sin was mortal in nature. Adam was not deceived but knew full well what he was doing and what the consequence were and still chose to sin. Once he had been carried away by the temptation and eaten then he realized what he had done and the estrangement between himself and God and his wife came immediately. Remember they hid from God and when God questioned Adam he blamed the woman.

This discernment is what now allows men to make moral decisions with never a thought for the law of God, which is why we call abortion and good truth wicked in our culture. We have discerned for ourselves apart from the Law what is right and wrong and so inverted what is actually right and wrong for the sake of our appetites. This cycle is continuously downward, unless grace intervenes, and will always consume itself as it always has in every generation as self serving and hedonism were given to being called virtue and holy living and obedience to a standard of God’s Law were called evil.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

If they were perfect living in a perfect world why would they want to disobey God anyways? I know the serpent says that it was the ‘tree of knowledge’, but why would they want to know everything? What would there have been to know? No history had started yet so what was the point? Sounds to me like they weren’t the brightest crayons in the box. I guess they didn’t think it through.

What about us Crayons here in the box. What about what we saw first hand what happens when you sin, and disobey God. But yet we go and do in anyway. How do you explain the New Crayons?

 

[rinnie]

What was the tree of knowledge doing in the garden though? Why did God put it there if nobody was to take from it? And why didn’t he chop off that snakes head before it got to Eve?

Free will God gave everyone free. It was not knowldege that was lacking. It was the devil saying to Eve, who do you choose. Eve wanted to be God, did she not?

Why did she eat the apple? She knew God told her not to. she stated that to the devil herself.