Are we over emphasizing the value of 'freedom' while largely ignoring the plight of poverty?

[markomalley]

Thanks for the source. Bear with me, I’m learning here.

What is the possibility of Pope Francis undoing the condemnation of Liberation Theology as portrayed in the Doctrine of the Faith? Could he possibly do this?

Where has he done that? His words, please, not what some journalist has said about him.

on edit…

never mind.

 

[markomalley]

Thanks for the source. Bear with me, I’m learning here.

What is the possibility of Pope Francis undoing the condemnation of Liberation Theology as portrayed in the Doctrine of the Faith? Could he possibly do this?

sorry for the prior, aborted, answer. (which I hope I deleted in time to prevent it responses)

It is extremely unlikely that he would embrace it, as it distorts the message of Christ toward the poor with a Marxist ideology… collectivism (forced) and socialism have been condemned since the 19th century.

I already see him making an increasingly radical call for solidarity with the poor. And this is proper and very much in concert with the Church Fathers. But there is a huge difference been that and calling for collective farms and nationalized industry.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Talk about inequality and injustice! The next time you hear the word ‘equality’ or ‘freedom,’ remember the above picture and reflect.

Not asking for money, but a sharing of the world’s resources so those in poverty can become self-sufficient! We are at a point in human history when we are able to accomplish this.

I recall reading that if every last bit of wealth in the U.S., including stocks, bonds, houses, cars, TV sets, cattle, horses, everything was sold (assuming buyers could be found at current prices) and the money redistributed worldwide, each person would get about $1,000.00.

Of course, if that happened, nobody in the U.S.could buy anything the rest of the world, or even the U.S. itself, had to offer.

Poverty in the world is a tremendous problem, but it can’t be fixed by our simply wishing it. It is enormously complex, and a good part of it is due to terrible governments in so many countries.

But one thing is for sure, a reasonable degree of freedom is essential to any improvement anywhere. Economic freedom is very rare in this world. Very rare. I am reminded of something the Russians used to say during the Soviet era: “As long as they pretend to pay us, we’ll pretend to work.” That was the common attitude, and precisely because people had no freedom to do as they thought best.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What is the possibility of Pope Francis undoing the condemnation of Liberation Theology as portrayed in the Doctrine of the Faith? Could he possibly do this?

Improbable to say the least. As a bishop, he didn’t embrace it. “Liberation Theology” is not really about liberation at all, but about coercion.

 

[Robert_Sock]

sorry for the prior, aborted, answer. (which I hope I deleted in time to prevent it responses)

It is extremely unlikely that he would embrace it, as it distorts the message of Christ toward the poor with a Marxist ideology… collectivism (forced) and socialism have been condemned since the 19th century.

I already see him making an increasingly radical call for solidarity with the poor. And this is proper and very much in concert with the Church Fathers. But there is a huge difference been that and calling for collective farms and nationalized industry.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=790562

Please see this article that touches upon Pope Francis’ ‘affinity for liberal theology.’

Francis’ speeches clearly draw on the themes of liberation theology, a movement that seeks to use the teachings of the Gospel to help free people from poverty and that has been particularly strong in his native Latin America. In the 1980s, Benedict, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the head of the Vatican’s doctrinal office, led a campaign to rein in the movement, which he saw as too closely tied to some Marxist political elements.

 

[markomalley]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=790562

Please see this article that touches upon Pope Francis’ ‘affinity for liberal theology.’

First, this the NY Times. They have a definite agenda. Be warned.

Having said that, even the Times acknowledged

Francis studied with an Argentine Jesuit priest who was a proponent of liberation theology, and Father Lombardi acknowledged the echoes. “But what is clear is that he was always against the strains of liberation theology that had an ideological Marxist element,” he said.

As Archbishop Chaput said

We make a very serious mistake if we rely on media like the New York Times, Newsweek, CNN, or MSNBC for reliable news about religion. These news media simply don’t provide trustworthy information about religious faith—and sometimes they can’t provide it, either because of limited resources or because of their own editorial prejudices. These are secular operations focused on making a profit. They have very little sympathy for the Catholic faith, and quite a lot of aggressive skepticism toward any religious community that claims to preach and teach God’s truth.

For more on his attitude toward Liberation Theology, see this National Catholic Register piece: ncregister.com/daily-news/chasm-exists-between-pope-francis-and-liberation-theology

Or this from John Allen: ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

 

[Rence]

Source? The world simply cannot sit back and do nothing to end severe poverty! To do so is to condone gross inequality. We already know that sitting back, waiting for donations, simply does not work.

Severe poverty needs to become an open social issue, where we declare a great war on poverty.

So, what do you propose exactly? Be specific. How far would you go to take money from hard working citizens and redistribute it to those who don’t work? Would you force relocations of working citizens, such as doctors, nurses, EMS personnel, lab technicians, truck drivers, construction workers, etc. People are a resource too.

Because I can tell you, I wouldn’t mind a rise in taxes to help the sick, elderly and disabled - and animal welfare efforts, which I personally require.

But take it too far, and I’d just quit my job and apply for federal aid myself. After all, why not? If people can sit around and collect unemployment (when they are able-bodied to work but choose not to), or have multiple pregnancies and decide to stay home and collect WIC, foodstamps and free healthcare, what would motivate me to continue to work 4 days a week, 12 hours+ each of those days, on my feet constantly without a choice about where my money goes - or where my resources go.

Poverty is complex, and resources are complex. You can’t just take from the workers and give to the non-workers. You can’t just take resources from one area and redistribute it to other areas.

 

[Robert_Sock]

So, what do you propose exactly? Be specific. How far would you go to take money from hard working citizens and redistribute it to those who don’t work? Would you force relocations of working citizens, such as doctors, nurses, EMS personnel, lab technicians, truck drivers, construction workers, etc. People are a resource too.

Because I can tell you, I wouldn’t mind a rise in taxes to help the sick, elderly and disabled - and animal welfare efforts, which I personally require.

But take it too far, and I’d just quit my job and apply for federal aid myself. After all, why not? If people can sit around and collect unemployment (when they are able-bodied to work but choose not to), or have multiple pregnancies and decide to stay home and collect WIC, foodstamps and free healthcare, what would motivate me to continue to work 4 days a week, 12 hours+ each of those days, on my feet constantly without a choice about where my money goes - or where my resources go.

Poverty is complex, and resources are complex. You can’t just take from the workers and give to the non-workers. You can’t just take resources from one area and redistribute it to other areas.

The key is to make the people in poverty self-sufficient. Creating jobs, for example. I think there are people in the (upper?) world who know how to make it all work out.

I also think that the world is going to experience rapid change over the next century, and I believe that the reward system for working is going to be ‘spiritual,’ not monetary.

 

[bcuster]

Individual freedom for the service of others or individual freedom from responsibility for others?
We can all start by living simpler, non-materialistic lives and supporting/working for services that help the poor help themselves. Catholic Relief Services does this, and there are others who do as well.

 

[Timothysis]

Robert,

Do you have a savings account? Retirement account? Investments? If you do, then how can you justify it when so many are in need?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert,

Do you have a savings account? Retirement account? Investments? If you do, then how can you justify it when so many are in need?

You really cannot help the people in severe poverty with money; most often, the money simply does not get to them. What needed is to make them self-sufficient, for example, with jobs. What’s needed is an organized, worldwide, effort!

Now, why don’t you go to Calcutta and volunteer to help the starving!

 

[Timothysis]

You really cannot help the people in severe poverty with money; most often, the money simply does not get to them. What needed is to make them self-sufficient, for example, with jobs. What’s needed is an organized, worldwide, effort!

Now, why don’t you go to Calcutta and volunteer to help the starving!

One needs capital in order to lay the foundation for building any industry. That, coupled with a lack of educational resources and facilities, require substantial amounts of money in order to facilitate any sort of change. Nice deflection, though.

Also, I’m not the one presuming to know the answer to solving the problem of poverty in the world and I have no plans or desire to volunteer in Calcutta. The irony, though, is in the fact that YOU are the one who presumes to know what is needed in the world; so why aren’t you putting your ideas into action if you truly believe them?

 

[Rence]

The key is to make the people in poverty self-sufficient. Creating jobs, for example. I think there are people in the (upper?) world who know how to make it all work out.
I also think that the world is going to experience rapid change over the next century, and I believe that the reward system for working is going to be ‘spiritual,’ not monetary.

So basically, you have no clue how to resolve the problem, but you think ‘making jobs’ will solve the problem, but you don’t have any idea how jobs are created…and you want ‘people in the upper’ world to come up with the solutions…am I right? I think you need to first get a basic knowledge of economics, business and supply/demand.

 

[Robert_Sock]

One needs capital in order to lay the foundation for building any industry. That, coupled with a lack of educational resources and facilities, require substantial amounts of money in order to facilitate any sort of change. Nice deflection, though.

Also, I’m not the one presuming to know the answer to solving the problem of poverty in the world and I have no plans or desire to volunteer in Calcutta. The irony, though, is in the fact that YOU are the one who presumes to know what is needed in the world; so why aren’t you putting your ideas into action if you truly believe them?

My job is to bring people closer to God. YOU may want to mind your own business. If you can’t say something constructive, don’t post!

 

[Rence]

My job is to bring people closer to God. YOU may want to mind your own business. If you can’t say something constructive, don’t post!

This is a discussion forum…it is his business If you don’t want people to reply to your posts, don’t post them

You didn’t post anything constructive either. All you want is for someone, anyone to solve world poverty by creating jobs, yet you have no idea how that is done

 

[Robert_Sock]

So basically, you have no clue how to resolve the problem, but you think ‘making jobs’ will solve the problem, but you don’t have any idea how jobs are created…and you want ‘people in the upper’ world to come up with the solutions…am I right? I think you need to first get a basic knowledge of economics, business and supply/demand.

I think I said that creating jobs is one example of how people can become self-sufficient. I also think I acknowledged my ignorance and suggest that other people have are in a much better position to know what exactly must be don. And yes, I believe we in this world are being guided my an upper world.

You may want to do me a favor and get back to the OP in your future posts.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This is a discussion forum…it is his business If you don’t want people to reply to your posts, don’t post them

You didn’t post anything constructive either. All you want is for someone, anyone to solve world poverty by creating jobs, yet you have no idea how that is done

Again, please get back to the OP.

 

[Rence]

I think I said that creating jobs is one example of how people can become self-sufficient. I also think I acknowledged my ignorance and suggest that other people have are in a much better position to know what exactly must be don. And yes, I believe we in this world are being guided my an upper world.

You may want to do me a favor and get back to the OP in your future posts.

Sure, I’ll do you a favor What other examples can you give about how to make people self sufficient? Any ideas?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Sure, I’ll do you a favor What other examples can you give about how to make people self sufficient? Any ideas?

No, not at present. I’m still learning here.

 

[Timothysis]

I’m still learning here.

Hopefully.