Are we persons or particles?

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People can and do find meaning in life without having firm religious convictions. Nevertheless as a matter of principle I think an atheist has to acknowledge that human life has no ultimate significance if there if there is no God and we are alone in the universe.
But here we will just talk past one another since “ultimate significance” just sounds like a stand in for you and your idea of the existence of God and an externally imposed meaning. I can’t make sense of what it would mean for a significance to be ultimate or not. In other words, I deny that there is any matter of principle here because this principle depends on me accepting your belief about what would constitute true meaning. And we are certainly not alone in the universe. I have a lot of friends, family, and other loved ones to keep me company.

To paraphrase a wise man, the meaning of life is not the sort of thing that comes with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the meaning of life is within you.
 
What would a refutation look like, for you? You’ve said this before, but I can’t think there’s any possible refutation you would identify as such.
All you have to do is examine your belief in materialism. If you cannot think of a possible refutation of materialism it shows you have a closed mind…
What would the world have to look like for you to conclude that a materialist account of cognition and personality obtains?
Simple. A world without persons! (Assuming I’m an observer on another planet.)
Absent some kind of idea of what would satisfy you, of what would falsify your intuitions…
They are not intuitions but reasons. I have already presented you with one. Here is another:
A demonstration by neuroscientists that our thoughts and decisions have physical causes. It’s as simple as that…
Isn’t it disingenuous to congratulate yourself for the “absence of any refutation”?
No self-congratulation is involved. Just an objective description of fact.
Just so it’s clear I’m not asking for something I myself would deny, the second coming of Jesus, complete with all manner of miracles we could witness, test, videotape, measure and analyze, a real, corporal Jesus who could demonstrate plenary control over the fabric of reality (say, zapping the Earth from one part of its orbit to an opposite point in its orbit, and back at will, or right my (or anyone’s) name in the stars, with the stars, etc., that would be a world in which I would consider my atheism falsified. And I could go one at length enumerating different scenarios that would have me resigning my atheism, and easily acknowledging the reality of a God (or god).
You are overlooking a miracle much closer to home. Your power to think for yourself and make your own decisions. Or do you believe you can’t? 🙂
 
You just keep saying that you can’t understand how materialists could possibly find life meaningful given that we are made of particles. How does one even attempt to refute your claim that you can’t understand how materialists find meaning in life? You can just keep on saying, “nope, still don’t get it.” As far as I can tell your incredulity is your whole argument.]
You are misrepresenting what I have said. Let me enumerate my points and indicate whether you accept or reject them.

Materialists believe:
  1. Atomic particles are meaningless and purposeless.
  2. The universe is meaningless and purposeless.
  3. The emergence of life was not intended or purposeful.
  4. Meaning and purpose are superimposed on life by human beings.
  5. Life will disappear and be an inconsequential spark in the darkness of eternity.
As when Bill O’Reilly said that he doesn’t have enough faith to be an atheist, the bottom line for me is that I’m just not nihilistic enough to think that life would have no meaning if there were no supernatural being out there to lend live meaning. I recognize that the world has intrinsic meaning rather than needing meaning to come from outside of the world.
Can you explain what you understand by “the world has intrinsic meaning”? Would it have intrinsic meaning or value if we didn’t exist? Was animal life meaningless and worthless before we existed?
You think that you are valuing humanity with your view… but ironically your idea of humanity requires that it can only have value if something nonhuman grants meaning to humanity.
I am not valuing humanity but recognising the value of humanity - unlike sceptics such as Schopenhauer.
Your idea of the basis for the worth of humanity depends on humanity being unworthy of sustaining its own value.
I don’t know how you reach that conclusion. Christians believe we get precisely what we deserve as the result of **our **own efforts and sacrifices.

.
… but ironically your idea of humanity requires that it can only have value if something nonhuman grants meaning to humanity.
  1. Humanity is meaningful and valuable if it is purposeful.
  2. Humanity consists of rational, purposeful beings.
  3. There is no evidence that rational, purposeful beings can be produced by irrational, purposeless processes.
  4. It is reasonable to believe that ultimate Reality is rational and purposeful.
I don’t share your pessimistic view of the world, life, humanity, etc, but there is nothing here to make rational arguments about.
I don’t share your pessimistic view that life will disappear utterly in the darkness of eternity…
The value of human life is a moral we draw from our experiences–from listening to Beethoven, reading Alice Walker, watching your children play, exploring our history and contemplating the possiblilities for what we may make of ourselves in the future. If you don’t get what is so astonishingly beautiful about the world and that humanity is worthy of profound respect I really doubt that I can help you.
I appreciate the wonder, richness, immense value and awe-inspiring beauty of life far more than you because I don’t believe it is an accident but a gift inspired by joy and love. Humanity is worthy of profound respect because we are not just biological organisms but persons who share that capacity for joy and love.
It isn’t something that you can expect a mathematical proof for. But I suspect that you are just pretending to not get it and posing as an extreme skeptic who will not be satisfied with any justification whatsoever. Your skepticism is just a pose. Why do you think we ought to answer to a your false pose?
I am not posing as anything but pointing out the logical consequences of materialism.
You are just asking questions that you and I don’t even have.
You certainly don’t have an answer because you refuse to look beyond the physical universe and admit the probability of another dimension. I don’t claim to understand the nature of ultimate reality but I firmly believe that truth, goodness, freedom, beauty and love are far more significant and valuable than material things. That is all that matters…
 
But here we will just talk past one another since “ultimate significance” just sounds like a stand in for you and your idea of the existence of God and an externally imposed meaning.
Maybe so, but I think it’s worth trying to find common ground. Otherwise what’s the point of conversing about these things? I think both you and Tony Rey have valid points and I said so; and you were definitely talking past each other.
I can’t make sense of what it would mean for a significance to be ultimate or not. In other words, I deny that there is any matter of principle here because this principle depends on me accepting your belief about what would constitute true meaning. And we are certainly not alone in the universe. I have a lot of friends, family, and other loved ones to keep me company.
I think if you can’t make sense of it then you lack imagination. Or at least the ability to listen and understand (not necessarily accept but understand) a point of view that you don’t agree with. Are you saying you’re so deeply committed to a non-theistic point of view that you can’t imagine what it would be like if a Supreme Being existed? Is the idea that God might exist so unreasonable? I think to most people it could be one way or the other; how they feel about it depends on their mood, the weather, etc.
To paraphrase a wise man, the meaning of life is not the sort of thing that comes with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the meaning of life is within you.
Well, yes I agree. But I also agree with Socrates that the unexamined life is not worth living. You probably do too since you spend so much time here!
 
But here we will just talk past one another since “ultimate significance” just sounds like a stand in for you and your idea of the existence of God and an externally imposed meaning. I can’t make sense of what it would mean for a significance to be ultimate or not. In other words, I deny that there is any matter of principle here because this principle depends on me accepting your belief about what would constitute true meaning. And we are certainly not alone in the universe. I have a lot of friends, family, and other loved ones to keep me company.
Or in other words, you’re saying “I can’t accept the idea of an “ultimate” meaning because I don’t believe in God”. That proves my point, doesn’t it? Because here you are denying that there is any ultimate meaning in life. And that is an undeniably bleak perspective.
 
Do you agree with the If ___, then ___ statement, though?
Windfish, if you have some proof of the existence of God or that atheism is false, I hope you will open a new thread and present your case.
 
Or in other words, you’re saying “I can’t accept the idea of an “ultimate” meaning because I don’t believe in God”. That proves my point, doesn’t it? Because here you are denying that there is any ultimate meaning in life. And that is an undeniably bleak perspective.
What’s bleak about it? You can have a richly pleasurable life without even once considering what “meaning” may be attached to it, whatever that might mean.
 
What’s bleak about it? You can have a richly pleasurable life without even once considering what “meaning” may be attached to it, whatever that might mean.
I never thought I’d say this, but here’s one area where I agree with the atheist.

I believe in our LORD and hope to see HIM one day, but I have never lain awake wondering about “the meaning of life” or gone mountain-climbing to seek it. To me, being physically and mentally human is its own reward. No meaning required or sought.

If you want to fight atheism, you need an argument stronger than “Life has no meaning without God.” Meaning isn’t breath; we can live just fine without it.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
What’s bleak about it? You can have a richly pleasurable life without even once considering what “meaning” may be attached to it, whatever that might mean.
Sorry to answer a question with a question but what’s the point of having a pleasurable life (or any life at all) if it’s utterly pointless and at the end of it is personal oblivion? I find that a bleak perspective. If the universe is this cold, unfeeling place in which everything that happens happens at random, well, that’s not really a hospitable place for humans who like order and meaning. (Of course, there is quite a lot of order in the universe but you’re insisting that it doesn’t point to any higher meaning – that the universe lacks moral rationality.)
 
I believe in our LORD and hope to see HIM one day, but I have never lain awake wondering about “the meaning of life” or gone mountain-climbing to seek it. To me, being physically and mentally human is its own reward. No meaning required or sought.
I tried to describe the situation in an earlier post as “people can and do find meaning in life without firm religious beliefs.” But if you think that life is just one thing after another without any rhyme or reason then I think you are rejecting the fact that life is meaningful, that is has some ultimate significance, and most human beings would find this conclusion disturbing because it means that you and your actions don’t matter and don’t have any lasting consequences.
If you want to fight atheism, you need an argument stronger than “Life has no meaning without God.” Meaning isn’t breath; we can live just fine without it.
I don’t see myself as fighting, just comparing notes with other philosophically-minded people. (But obviously I disagree with your assessment; I think it’s a very pertinent argument against atheism.)
 
Sorry to answer a question with a question but what’s the point of having a pleasurable life (or any life at all) if it’s utterly pointless and at the end of it is personal oblivion? I find that a bleak perspective. If the universe is this cold, unfeeling place in which everything that happens happens at random, well, that’s not really a hospitable place for humans who like order and meaning. (Of course, there is quite a lot of order in the universe but you’re insisting that it doesn’t point to any higher meaning – that the universe lacks moral rationality.)
Well, just to put this in perspective for you,

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the Universe is so hostile to life that it would kill you near instantaneously, so it’s not a hospitable place.

Also, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% is around three degrees Kelvin, so I can also attest the Universe most certainly is a cold place.

As for meaning, I’m capable of independent analysis and I don’t need the Universe nor any supernatural father figure to find meaning for me. I’m shocked at the childlike incapacity of those who do.
 
Well, just to put this in perspective for you,

99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the Universe is so hostile to life that it would kill you near instantaneously, so it’s not a hospitable place.
But our home the earth isn’t.
Also, 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% is around three degrees Kelvin, so I can also attest the Universe most certainly is a cold place.
But our home the earth isn’t.
As for meaning, I’m capable of independent analysis and I don’t need the Universe nor any supernatural father figure to find meaning for me. I’m shocked at the childlike incapacity of those who do.
Okay.
 
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the Universe is so hostile to life that it would kill you near instantaneously, so it’s not a hospitable place.
Our Earth isn’t even perfect for human life. What, 71% is covered by oceans, 2-4% of which clean drinkable water (rough estimate in my head)? And besides that, our physical bodies are not even that amazing :rolleyes:

I enjoy your posts, just wanted to type that down sorry 😃
 
Our Earth isn’t even perfect for human life. What, 71% is covered by oceans, 2-4% of which clean drinkable water (rough estimate in my head)? And besides that, our physical bodies are not even that amazing :rolleyes:

I enjoy your posts, just wanted to type that down sorry 😃
It sure beats the Moon, though.
 
But our home the earth isn’t.
Our Earth can support life on some of it’s surface, some of the time. In another billion years or so, due to the heating of the Sun and the h-dot of the Moon, it will support life on none of it’s surface, none of the time.

Welcome to paradise.
 
Persons don’t exist as far as science is concerned but most scientists believe in human rights. So how do we fit into the atomic scheme of** things**?

Materialists believe we are composed of particles and nothing else. They use their mind to prove their mind doesn’t exist. A bizarre enterprise! Surely the truth is that we have a mind as well as a brain. Our brain is composed of particles but we are more than particles. Particles are not conscious or rational or purposeful but we are. They don’t have a right to life but we do.
Not quite that simple. Much simpler, if you look at some interesting threads in our nature. My recommendation is to read Ken Wilbur’s A Brief History of Everything. It deals intimately with this issue in the sanest way I’ve yet seen. The theist/atheist arguments almost invariably leave out big pieces that have critical bearing on the question. Mr. WIlbur addresses them. In the mean time, I like the statement for RAH: “Materialism is the least likely hypothesis.” But then I lump, for very good reason, theism in the same category as atheism, they being the two sides of one coin having little to do in actuality with God.
 
Persons don’t exist as far as science is concerned but most scientists believe in human rights. So how do we fit into the atomic scheme of things?
If it’s much simpler it must be possible to summarise it simply!
In the mean time, I like the statement for RAH: “Materialism is the least likely hypothesis.” But then I lump, for very good reason, theism in the same category as atheism, they being the two sides of one coin having little to do in actuality with God.
I agree that human beings cannot understand or adequately describe the Ultimate Reality denoted by the word “God” but I cannot see how theism and atheism are two sides of one coin.
 
If it’s much simpler it must be possible to summarise it simply!
Simplest way? “Gnothi Seaouton.” Know Thyself. But that might take a lifetime of disciplined practice. Or not.
I agree that human beings cannot understand or adequately describe the Ultimate Reality denoted by the word “God” but I cannot see how theism and atheism are two sides of one coin.
That one is simple, too. The opposition of the two can only take place in the discursive mind, the subject/object oriented mind, which we ordinarily use to navigate the sense world, often without breaking a leg on the way to the store, and sometimes spectacularly well. That mind is only part of the mind available to the human as the inheritance called “made in the Image and Likeness of God.” If one can quiet or silence the discursive mind and develop attention as the, well, intuitive mind, and entirely different mode of access and knowledge opens to the individual. It is in this realm that anything of significance can be understood regarding God. But that is not intellectual knowledge. It is qualitatively different.

And yet, on taking up the discursive mind again, it it that which is used to quantify, if that were possible, the experience. In other words, in the same way that people who have NDE’s name the Presence they encounter according to their religious background, so so people who have some access to this realm name that Presence.

Ultimately, that Presence is nameless and a cognitive leap is made as one become used to navigating this realm. And eventually, if one is fortunate, the “two” modes meld into surely what is the ultimate normal human mind: equiexistant and mobile in awareness in both states. But now we “see through a glass darkly.” More-so because we accept certain consensus validates cognitive paradigms in which this takes place. The ultimate awakening in this state will allow on structure as being its embodiment, those structures tending to re-enforce the intellectually assertive part as distinct from its practical living Essence. And that is how religions are born.

Very few are able to Balance the two modes in a living body, though history and contemporary times have many examples, but not relative to total population. And this is where the questions of origin of the Church and its actual Teaching can get emotionally loaded if one has an investment in a paradigm less than the acceptance within themselves or another of this kind of Balance. This is why so many find it difficult to see the value of a color scale referent to Conscious evolution, which is that same as “spiritual” evolution.

And it is why there is contention between what can be called the ascending/exoteric and descending/esoteric forms, traditionally East and West, of religion. Neither is adequate on its own, and slightly fewer can balance those than can balance the actual states that they mostly rely on. And that, again is why theism and atheism, as paradigms in mind, are of the same arguable ilk. They are incomplete in their inclusions and do not exist in the realm of useful experience. This is why one who has “been there” more than as an introduction can recognize intuitively the authenticity of any Speaker from any age and from any current expression. And it is why someone who yet has an emotional investment in a consensual paradigm may refuse to until they at last cannot see otherwise. It is, being based on the structure of Self/Image and Likeness of God, not possible to be otherwise.

As we approach the quantum level of perception, one cannot distinguish between objects or their state relative to “life.” There is only the cloud of quantum possibility and its mysteries. Knowing this on an experiential level might be called Enlightenment, Awakening, RApture, the Beatific Vision, whatever. But ultimately ii is Self knowledge, where “Self” has the the denotation of Subjective ALLness. But you see, words fail. One just has to be there, Realizing that they were never anywhere else.

I hope that helps.
 
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