Are we rational or irrational?

[jonfawkes]

And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Paul never met Jesus

 

[GEddie]

Paul never met Jesus

But he did say, “Absent from the body, present with the LORD”(2 Co 5).

ICXC NIKA

 

[jonfawkes]

But he did say, “Absent from the body, present with the LORD”(2 Co 5).

ICXC NIKA

That was post conversion. Ecclesiastics and Job are more relevant pre-conversion to Saul.

Yet before he became a Christian Paul was an orthodox Jew who believed in praying for the souls of the dead.

 

[larkin31]

Then how do you explain this?

"One tradition in sola scriptura is to actually have the audacity to accept what Paul says. He admits it’s a mystery, he doesn’t really know, but he says “the dead will be raised imperishable” and we will join them in this new state when the trumpet sounds.

This is no claim that there is no soul, and it is no evidence of a “Western secular tradition” of there being “no God and no soul”–which was your claim.

 

[inocente]

"In other words he is claiming that Paul denied the existence of the soul. Yet before he became a Christian Paul was an orthodox Jew who believed in praying for the souls of the dead. It is absurd to think his conversion led him to reject the soul.

Calm down, you’ll do yourself a mischief. It’s how it’s taught whether or not it fits with your view. We sleep until judgment day unless God wakes us before.

*After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” - John 11:11-15 NIV

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. - 1 Cor 15:52*

Doesn’t say there’s no soul, it’s just a different view. There’s no denial of the existence of the soul - instead of believing we’re transported immediately there’s a (to us unnoticed) potential delay. As a Catholic you’ll say it’s wrong but don’t Catholics too believe in what I think you call general judgment?

Incidentally, if you think about it that pause actually supports praying for the dead because prayer might influence a decision that has not yet been made.

 

[You]

The good thief was told ‘this day you will be with me in paradise’
‘Paradise’ strongly implies the soul of the dead thief is alive, awake, conscious, free, active.

 

[inocente]

It immediately reminded me of the story of the Zen monk who was presented the Four Gospels by a missionary. I have a more acceptable-to-Christians conclusion than did the monk, but what he said upon reading them was “This man is almost enlightened!” I feel the same way about the substance of those quotes.

That must have been one arrogant monk or else he was very good at sound-bites .

Did he let the world in on why he thinks he stands head and shoulders above the rest of us lowly guys?

 

[inocente]

The good thief was told ‘this day you will be with me in paradise’
‘Paradise’ strongly implies the soul of the dead thief is alive, awake, conscious, free, active.

Yes, as I said, it’s up to God.

Might be going out on a limb here but the last trumpet is not unknown in the OT. Not a big fan of apocalyptic books but for instance:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12:1-3 NIV

 

[Ranklyfrank]

That must have been one arrogant monk or else he was very good at sound-bites .

Did he let the world in on why he thinks he stands head and shoulders above the rest of us lowly guys?

Actually, he might very well have said that he is not different than any other guys, but knew that intrinsically, while other people called him a zen monk.

 

[You]

Yes, as I said, it’s up to God.

Might be going out on a limb here but the last trumpet is not unknown in the OT. Not a big fan of apocalyptic books but for instance:

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12:1-3 NIV

Well, you already know that the good thief’s soul is alive and active in paradise and now it says at the end of time his body will be resurrected, [and rejoined to his soul]. The first resurrection is of the soul to life after the death of the body, the second resurrection is of the body at the end of time.

 

[inocente]

Well, you already know that the good thief’s soul is alive and active in paradise and now it says at the end of time his body will be resurrected, [and rejoined to his soul]. The first resurrection is of the soul to life after the death of the body, the second resurrection is of the body at the end of time.

Not sure you get your old body back, now rotted or cremated, unless it’s by God reaching back in time. Not quite sure an Earthly body would last imperishable for eternity either. Also not sure how you got there from requoting “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake”.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake”.

Inocente, you did, by your account of coming out the other end of the tunnel. Why do so many think that sort of statement is about an afterlife? I mean it may be, but there are WAY more immediate applications!

 

[You]

Not sure you get your old body back, now rotted or cremated, unless it’s by God reaching back in time. Not quite sure an Earthly body would last imperishable for eternity either. Also not sure how you got there from requoting “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake”.

Jesus Christ was the first to resurrect from the dead. It was his same body he resurrected and his same soul returned to it. Except that the resurrected body is now a glorified body and cannot die again.
The multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth is presumably a way of saying ‘the dead’, the souls of the dead in Davids day rested in Abrahams Comfort, that description implying a state of awareness in the soul allowing it to be comforted but though not yet in heaven.
‘sleeping’ means dead, but the souls of the dead variously resided in Abrahams Comfort or across an impassable gulf if you were bad; or, later, the soul went to paradise/heaven.

 

[You]

These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. [12] His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. [13] But Jesus spoke of his death; and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep. [14] Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead. [15] And I am glad, for your sakes, that I was not there, that you may believe: but let us go to him.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into** Abraham’s bosom…**

Coincidentally the beggars names was Lazarus.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Neither the beggar’s nor Jesus’ friend’s name is a coincidence.

I wonder, “You,” have you ever read The New Man: an interpretation of some of the miracles and parables of Christ?

 

[tonyrey]

Calm down, you’ll do yourself a mischief. It’s how it’s taught whether or not it fits with your view. We sleep until judgment day unless God wakes us before.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” - John 11:11-15 NIV

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. - 1 Cor 15:52

Doesn’t say there’s no soul, it’s just a different view. There’s no denial of the existence of the soul - instead of believing we’re transported immediately there’s a (to us unnoticed) potential delay. As a Catholic you’ll say it’s wrong but don’t Catholics too believe in what I think you call general judgment?

Incidentally, if you think about it that pause actually supports praying for the dead because prayer might influence a decision that has not yet been made.

Do you believe we have a soul?

 

[GEddie]

Neither the beggar’s nor Jesus’ friend’s name is a coincidence.

I’m not sure you can say they were the same man, if that is what you are claiming.

Scripture nowhere connects Lazarus, our LORD’s acquaintance, with beggar-level poverty. If nothing else, beggars were not placed in rock tombs at death, any more than deceased derelicts are allotted bronze coffins or marble headstones in our world.

I’d say the 2 “Lazarii” are definitely 2 different persons.

ICXC NIKA

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Mom2, thou protesteth 2 much and too weakly, as emphasized by your bolds.

My argument is impeccable. Those with eyes will see that fact. Thanks for the weak criticism.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

I’m not sure you can say they were the same man, if that is what you are claiming.

No. How did you get that idea? I simply said that it was no coincidence because as far as I can tell it isn’t.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

My argument is impeccable. Those with eyes will see that fact. Thanks for the weak criticism.

You are very welcome; it fits with your weak argument.