Are we rational or irrational?

[You]

Tonyrey,

It is more reasonable to assume that God created the universe based on the laws of nature, already knowing a conscious rational being would be a product. These beings would then come to understand these laws, to find Him.

Minds are derived from thoughts, which are triggered by our senses participation in reality. “You” are created by a collection of thoughts (memory), which are expressed in the use of speech and language. We are biological machines able to question whether or not we actually are biological machine! We become free when we begin to question.

Have you heard the analogy of God writing a movie? He created the script and characters (laws of nature), and He also created the set (atoms which make ip the universe), while also staring in his own film. He is every perspective.

I don’t fully agree with it, but I thought you might like that analogy

Interesting, in that it does not leave any room for the soul. If we are simply atoms vibrating and our thoughts are simply many atoms vibrating then when we die we simply stop vibrating and we are no more.
All this christian and jewish talk about afterlives would not mean anything without a soul to live in the afterlife!

 

[jonfawkes]

This goes back a few posts to jon’s point about omnipresence. If we think of the world as separate from God then it is apart and self-sustaining, no longer needing God. If we think of the world as sustained by God then it is apart while not apart, there’s a conundrum. If we think of the world as being part of God there’s the problem of explaining evil. Yikes, I dunno!

I don’t see how there is “the problem of evil” if everything is God. There is no evil, just the perception of evil. If God is omni-benevolent and omnipresent - there is nothing but the good everywhere. Any perception of evil is a trick of perspective.

 

[tonyrey]

Nature is part of the agency, a means of the agency. Look around you, look at a baby or the stars or a tree - does all this seem more like an accident or more like a masterpiece?

God works though Nature.

It’s a very holistic view of reality and doesn’t say anything about whether minds are or are not derived from the Supreme Mind, it just says they may not be derived in the style to which you’re accustomed.

You probably don’t realise I believe in Creation through evolution.

A far more reasonable explanation is based on a holistic view of reality. Modern medicine is concerned with the whole person not just the body.We are not composed of parts but are indivisible entities. We are not biological machines but autonomous beings capable of shaping our own destiny.

Minds are not derived from matter but from the Supreme Mind. The things we see and touch are far less important than intangible realities like truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love. We are rational and purposeful because existence is rational and purposeful. The order, complexity and harmony of the universe are the result of Design not Chance. It is irrational to attribute everything that is precious to blind processes which exist for no reason whatsoever…

I might be reading you wrong, but you seem to presuppose that God had no purpose in creating matter, that matter cannot in any way be imbued with any purpose other than to be blind matter, that the universe must conform to a given design or else be here by chance.

You are reading me wrong. God’s purpose in creating matter was to provide a basis for a physical as well as a spiritual existence. Matter is not purposeful in itself but it serves the immensely valuable purpose of forming a universe of breathtaking beauty with an incredible richness and variety of living organisms. That is the result of Design not chance.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Couldn’t it be we’re able to recognize intangibles because we are children of God and of His universe? Why the either/or?

I entirely agree with you! There is no either/or in that respect…

 

[tonyrey]

Nature is part of the agency, a means of the agency. Look around you, look at a baby or the stars or a tree - does all this seem more like an accident or more like a masterpiece?

Irrefutable!

 

[jonfawkes]

Irrefutable!

Not really - energy is neither created or destroyed. Just changes form. Our atoms don’t stop “vibrating”

 

[tonyrey]

It is more reasonable to assume that God created the universe based on the laws of nature, already knowing a conscious rational being would be a product. These beings would then come to understand these laws, to find Him.

Yes, if God created the laws of nature

Minds are derived from thoughts, which are triggered by our senses participation in reality.

If minds are derived from thoughts how can they control themselves and physical obects?

“You” are created by a collection of thoughts (memory), which are expressed in the use of speech and language.

The same problem arises. How can a collection have** self**-control?

We are biological machines able to question whether or not we actually are biological machine! We become free when we begin to question.

Questioning alone does not make us free. The truth makes us free but we have to be free to arrive at the truth!

Have you heard the analogy of God writing a movie? He created the script and characters (laws of nature), and He also created the set (atoms which make ip the universe), while also staring in his own film. He is every perspective.

I don’t fully agree with it, but I thought you might like that analogy

The problem is that it leads to fatalism because, alas, we wouldn’t be able to deviate from our script. :imsorry:

 

[tonyrey]

Not really - energy is neither created or destroyed. Just changes form. Our atoms don’t stop “vibrating”

What evidence is there that atomic “vibration” can achieve anything deliberately?

 

[jonfawkes]

What evidence is there that atomic “vibration” can achieve anything deliberately?

That all matter is made of them So they are participating in the process of anything deliberately done. The cells of my body are involved in me deliberately typing the words that I am typing.

 

[You]

Not really - energy is neither created or destroyed. Just changes form. Our atoms don’t stop “vibrating”

But, you cease to be and the atoms which used to be used to think about your dinner are now used to build a snail. Where are your thoughts when your atoms go away? Do you have a soul?

 

[tonyrey]

That all matter is made of them.

“participating” and “involved” are a far cry from “deliberately”…

 

[lemondiesel]

Yes, if God created the laws of nature

Are there any alternatives as a believer?

If minds are derived from thoughts how can they control themselves and physical obects?

Let me rephrase. The Mind is derived from thoughts and memory. (collection of thoughts, past and present) They control themselves by the compound memory, or experience.

The same problem arises. How can a collection have** self**-control?

Self control derives from reason. There is a long road in order to obtain reason and self-sontrol, but it all starts with the direct experience. No language, no thought, no memory, just the experience. From there, “We” as a collection of atoms, builds up towards reason.

Questioning alone does not make us free. The truth makes us free but we have to be free to arrive at the truth!

How do you know you are initially free without questioning?

The problem is that it leads to fatalism because, alas, we wouldn’t be able to deviate from our script. :imsorry:

You misunderstood. The script is continuously being written, it is the Now.

 

[jonfawkes]

But, you cease to be and the atoms which used to be used to think about your dinner are now used to build a snail. Where are your thoughts when your atoms go away? Do you have a soul?

Where does your heart beat go?, where does your breath go? Where does a smile go when you stop smiling?

Soul? yes, Rhythm too :dancing:

 

[jonfawkes]

“participating” and “involved” are a far cry from “deliberately”…

Which part of you does things deliberately?

 

[ronnie_bonigli]

But, you cease to be and the atoms which used to be used to think about your dinner are now used to build a snail. Where are your thoughts when your atoms go away? Do you have a soul?

Something to consider, every cell in your body is constantly building new proteins to replace older proteins within the cell, that’s all the cell does 24/7. This results in every atom in your body being replaced every few years or so, you very likely don’t have a single protein (and thus a single atom) in your body from ten years ago, your entire body has been replaced with 100% “new” atoms from a few years earlier. So where lays the continuation of “you”?

 

[tonyrey]

Which part of you does things deliberately?

My body consists of parts but **I **don’t! It is the self that is responsible for self-control and decision-making, not the lump of tissue inside the skull which blindly follows its instructions and is unaware of what it is doing.

 

[jonfawkes]

My body consists of parts but **I **don’t! It is the self that is responsible for self-control and decision-making, not the lump of tissue inside the skull which blindly follows its instructions and is unaware of what it is doing.

Where is your “self”? What is your “self” ?

 

[tonyrey]

Are there any alternatives as a believer?

To what?

Let me rephrase. The Mind is derived from thoughts and memory. (collection of thoughts, past and present) They control themselves by the compound memory, or experience.

What is the mechanism by which thoughts and memory control themselves?

Self control derives from reason. There is a long road in order to obtain reason and self-control, but it all starts with the direct experience. No language, no thought, no memory, just the experience. From there, “We” as a collection of atoms, builds up towards reason.

There is thought without language because at the outset men used symbols to express their ideas - and we still do.

How do you know you are initially free without questioning?

You have to be free to ask questions. Otherwise you do things automatically without asking anything.

You misunderstood. The script is continuously being written, it is the Now.

And we are writing part of the script.

 

[You]

Something to consider, every cell in your body is constantly building new proteins to replace older proteins within the cell, that’s all the cell does 24/7. This results in every atom in your body being replaced every few years or so, you very likely don’t have a single protein (and thus a single atom) in your body from ten years ago, your entire body has been replaced with 100% “new” atoms from a few years earlier. So where lays the continuation of “you”?

I’ve heard similar to that replacement thing too. I think You is the soul. A human is a marriage of atoms and soul, I always thought. Atoms come, atoms go, thats possible because I include a unique complete soul. But if a type of pseudo-soul which comes only from atoms themselves then it must return also to nothing when the body dissipates and atoms scatter to the four winds.

 

[jonfawkes]

Something to consider, every cell in your body is constantly building new proteins to replace older proteins within the cell, that’s all the cell does 24/7. This results in every atom in your body being replaced every few years or so, you very likely don’t have a single protein (and thus a single atom) in your body from ten years ago, your entire body has been replaced with 100% “new” atoms from a few years earlier. So where lays the continuation of “you”?

The Church has new people every generation and the old die, how can the Church continue?

 

[lemondiesel]

So where lays the continuation of “you”?

“You” isn’t laid in foundation of specific individual atoms, it is the collection of certain ‘proper’ atoms.

Hence the need for DNA … which tells cells how to make “You.”

…Atoms controlling what other atoms do