Are we rational or irrational?

[lemondiesel]

Interesting, in that it does not leave any room for the soul. If we are simply atoms vibrating and our thoughts are simply many atoms vibrating then when we die we simply stop vibrating and we are no more.
All this christian and jewish talk about afterlives would not mean anything without a soul to live in the afterlife!

Yes but I recognize that this vibration is very important in understanding Existence. It is the vibration of the universe. The Soul (imo) is a result from this.

This is an excellent thread idea … hint hint

 

[larkin31]

What evidence is there that atomic “vibration” can achieve anything deliberately?

The only “deliberate” behavior discovered thus far is in the animal kingdom on this planet.

 

[tonyrey]

*My body consists of parts but **I ***

Where is truth, goodness, evil, freedom, justice, equality or love? It is a mistake to assume that all reality is located in space and time. Your self <> your body. Your self is your mind with its intangible thoughts, emotions, principles, values, goals, aspirations, ideals and decisions.

 

[jonfawkes]

Where is truth, goodness, evil, freedom, justice, equality or love? It is a mistake to assume that all reality is located in space and time. Your self <> your body. Your self is your mind with its intangible thoughts, emotions, principles, values, goals, aspirations, ideals and decisions.

Where does my body keep my mind? How does it keep it?

 

[GEddie]

Where is truth, goodness, evil, freedom, justice, equality or love? It is a mistake to assume that all reality is located in space and time.

. Except where human beings are involved; then our physicality becomes an issue. We are not spirits, however much some may wish to be.

Your self <> your body. Your self is your mind with its intangible thoughts, emotions, principles, values, goals, aspirations, ideals and decisions.

None of which would exist without your body; and all of which go into abeyance if your body is unconscious or even asleep.

“You” or your “self” are a thinking body. That’s why the Greek word SOMA used in Scripture, means either the physical form, or the “person.”

Even in English, we say a human being is “somebody”.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Where does my body keep my mind?

For the most part, in your head.

Brain surgery has proven that thought resides in the human head.
Likewise, instances such as head injuries and choke holds.

How does it keep it?

By providing breath, blood, etc, to keep the nerve-cells alive that generate “it” (your mind), as well as sense organs to provide (name removed by moderator)ut, limbs to move “it” around, and a protected locale within your skull.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[jonfawkes]

For the most part, in your head.

Brain surgery has proven that thought resides in the human head.
Likewise, instances such as head injuries and choke holds.

By providing breath, blood, etc, to keep the nerve-cells alive that generate “it” (your mind), as well as sense organs to provide (name removed by moderator)ut, limbs to move “it” around, and a protected locale within your skull.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

If we are trinitarian - body, mind, and soul - you can’t divorce one from the other without destroying the whole. Where does that leave the “afterlife”?

 

[GEddie]

My body consists of parts but **I **don’t!

Actually, you do. At the very least , Body + psyche.

And, if you wished to get pedantic, the psyche or mind can reduce to memory + intellect + will, etc.

These are not “parts” in the sense of becoming disassembled, but are distinguishable in that one can go into abeyance without the others (ie, amnesia, or unconsciousness).

It is the self that is responsible for self-control and decision-making, not the lump of tissue inside the skull which blindly follows its instructions and is unaware of what it is doing.

Your “self” would not exist without the tissue in your skull, or indeed the entirety of your human body that supports it’s functioning.

And self-control and decision making would go into abeyance or stop altogether if a knock on the skull, or a choke hold on the neck, prevented the tissue from doing it’s job.

ICXC NIKA

 

[You]

Yes but I recognize that this vibration is very important in understanding Existence. It is the vibration of the universe. The Soul (imo) is a result from this.

*This is an excellent thread idea … hint hint

It works for the universe the same way. If the universe ceases to be then the universes soul ceases to be because the universes soul is simply the result of its vibrating atoms.
So the question I think remains, what created the atoms of the universe in such a way as to allow them to vibrate to create a soul for the universe. As, when the atoms of the universe did not exist then the soul of the universe did not exist. Unless the soul of the universe did exist before its atoms, and its pre-existing soul contributed to the design of the universes’ atoms so that the universe would be capable of having soul when it does exist and vibrates.
So the pre-existing soul of the universe is sort of the spirit of the principle of the existing universe. Gosh, philosophy is easy…:hypno:

*I will consider a thread once I’ve figured out what its about.

 

[GEddie]

If we are trinitarian - body, mind, and soul - you can’t divorce one from the other without destroying the whole. Where does that leave the “afterlife”?

“The afterlife” is alive and well. Pun intended.

It just doesn’t work in the childhood image of a wisp-of-nothing mind/soul floating free of the dead human body. Like you said, destroy one and you lose the other.

This is why “resurrectional” life, rather than an independent soul, is crucial in human eschatology. Scripture never separates the “afterlife” from resurrection. The human afterlife, scripturally, is always an EMBODIED life. You regain your mind because you become a reassembled body.

Of course, it isn’t the same timebound, entropy-driven body. You emerge into Eternity. You are “raised a spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma) (1 Co 15).

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

 

[jonfawkes]

“The afterlife” is alive and well. Pun intended.

It just doesn’t work in the childhood image of a wisp-of-nothing mind/soul floating free of the dead human body. Like you said, destroy one and you lose the other.

This is why “resurrectional” life, rather than an independent soul, is crucial in human eschatology. Scripture never separates the “afterlife” from resurrection. The human afterlife, scripturally, is always an EMBODIED life. You regain your mind because you become a reassembled body.

Of course, it isn’t the same timebound, entropy-driven body. You emerge into Eternity. You are “raised a spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma) (1 Co 15).

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

So until the resurrection we are ??? after death?

 

[GEddie]

So until the resurrection we are ??? after death?

There is no ‘???’. Time is a side-effect of the law of entropy. We experience time because of the chemical changes in the substance of our natural bodies. You will have no time after you die, since the chemical processes will end.

Since you will have no time, there is no ‘???’. Your eyes will roll back, and you will “instantly” resume seeing in Eternity, in your “pneumatikon soma.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

 

[inocente]

Interesting, in that it does not leave any room for the soul. If we are simply atoms vibrating and our thoughts are simply many atoms vibrating then when we die we simply stop vibrating and we are no more.
All this christian and jewish talk about afterlives would not mean anything without a soul to live in the afterlife!

No, it still works. Assume body and soul start as one at birth and remain one until we die. God then rescues the soul (the spiritual body) and takes us off to heaven, leaving the natural body behind.

God is everywhere and everywhen so He can even reach into space and time to rescue us long after we die. We can read Paul this way: *Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” – 1 Cor 15:51-54 NIV
*

 

[inocente]

God works though Nature.

Agreed.

You probably don’t realise I believe in Creation through evolution.

Oh well, that accounts for your recalcitrance. Creationism may be in for a hard time once the mind is explained materially, don’t say you weren’t warned.

You are reading me wrong. God’s purpose in creating matter was to provide a basis for a physical as well as a spiritual existence. Matter is not purposeful in itself but it serves the immensely valuable purpose of forming a universe of breathtaking beauty with an incredible richness and variety of living organisms. That is the result of Design not chance.

I’m still not reading you Houston. To me, the second sentence there reduces to “Matter is not purposeful in itself but is purposeful in itself”.

I entirely agree with you! There is no either/or in that respect…

Two agreements!

Yes, if God created the laws of nature
If minds are derived from thoughts how can they control themselves and physical obects?

Physical minds have no problem controlling the physical because they’re … physical. Non-physical minds would have a lot of trouble controlling the physical unless we want to believe in telekinesis.

The same problem arises. How can a collection have* self***-control?

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

What evidence is there that atomic “vibration” can achieve anything deliberately?

The Bible.

 

[jonfawkes]

There is no ‘???’. Time is a side-effect of the law of entropy. We experience time because of the chemical changes in the substance of our natural bodies. You will have no time after you die, since the chemical processes will end.

Since you will have no time, there is no ‘???’. Your eyes will roll back, and you will “instantly” resume seeing in Eternity, in your “pneumatikon soma.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA!

So all Christians go to the same point in time (from our perspective) when they die, namely the resurrection. If that is the case we are all there “now”(from an eternal perspective) . If an early Christian and I and my great great great grandkid, all have been judged worthy we all end up at the same place in eternity, it is like our deaths happened at the same moment. (from our perspective “now”)

• yes?

 

[You]

No, it still works. Assume body and soul start as one at birth and remain one until we die. God then rescues the soul (the spiritual body) and takes us off to heaven, leaving the natural body behind.

God is everywhere and everywhen so He can even reach into space and time to rescue us long after we die. We can read Paul this way: *Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” – 1 Cor 15:51-54 NIV
*

Surely the soul is just the result of jiggling atoms. The “soul” lives just as long as the jiggling continues. What is there to rescue when the jiggling stops only the philosophical dying echos of a final half-formed abstract thought, a thought which has no reality apart from its jiggling atoms.-

 

[jonfawkes]

Surely the soul is just the result of jiggling atoms. The “soul” lives just as long as the jiggling continues. What is there to rescue when the jiggling stops only the philosophical dying echos of a final half-formed abstract thought, a thought which has no reality apart from its jiggling atoms.-

Please stop using this faulty construct - atoms don’t stop juggling, because, or after our deaths. Carbon doesn’t stop being carbon, when your body stops being “you.”

 

[GEddie]

So all Christians go to the same point in time (from our perspective) when they die, namely the resurrection. If that is the case we are all there “now”(from an eternal perspective) . If an early Christian and I and my great great great grandkid, all have been judged worthy we all end up at the same place in eternity, it is like our deaths happened at the same moment. (from our perspective “now”)

• yes?

In a word, yes.

Eternity sees all beings and times. It is only those of us still travelling in the spiral of time whose sight is barricaded from the rest of being.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA

 

[You]

Please stop using this faulty construct - atoms don’t stop juggling, because, or after our deaths. Carbon doesn’t stop being carbon, when your body stops being “you.”

Heres the construct;
1 carbon atom jiggling is not you.
*10 billion carbon atoms + 10 billion others jiggling together in a pattern unique create this sentence.
*20 billion atoms dissipate after I die, and this sentence, as a thought of mine, ceases to exist totally when the atoms scatter.
Only while the atoms are jiggling together in a very complex pattern do they constitute me or my thoughts.
If they jiggle in any other pattern or if they dissipate then I cease to be, if jiggling atoms is all I be.

You can point out which particular bit is wrong and why, if you like.

*( or whatever the figure is)

 

[GEddie]

Surely the soul is just the result of jiggling atoms. The “soul” lives just as long as the jiggling continues. What is there to rescue when the jiggling stops only the philosophical dying echos of a final half-formed abstract thought, a thought which has no reality apart from its jiggling atoms.-

Even if the soul/mind is no more than a process fuelled by the thermal movement of atoms, GOD can retrieve that process, for our pneumatikon soma.

I mean, human technology can capture the vibrations of someone’s voice to play again and again. A voice is just moving atoms. Wouldn’t you expect GOD to do even better?

God bless and ICXC NIKA.