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iwannabesomeone
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Hello, I heard we are not required to give up meat on Fridays in the US. Is this true?
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freudmacher
Guest
It’s true…but we are required to do something for penance.
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kleary
Guest
Not exactly.
In the US we have a choice, either to give up flesh meat as we do on Fridays in Lent or something else instead such as candy or something we enjoy, or do acts of Penance (go to confession, pray Rosary, donate money to the poor, etc.)
On Fridays I sometimes abstain from either meat or candy. Or I go to confession on that day. If I go to confession I do not worry about abstaining from anything…but we still have fish for dinner every Friday anyway.
Bottom line is that if you are not going to abstain from meat you have to abstain from something else you normally enjoy or do an act of penance.
Ken
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Markstorm
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Aramis
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Last year, it was eating whatever was offered up by the school cafeteria where I was working. Sometimes that meant fish. Sometimes not, as sometimes the fish ran out.
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ItalianBoy1993
Guest
i hope you are joking.
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war_eagle
Guest
Romans 14:1-6 says that we’re not required to give up meat at all.
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war_eagle
Guest
What does I Sam 15:22 say?
Why would you feel the need to make penance? I thought Roman Catholics believed that Jesus already purchased the atonement for your sins (Purgatory notwithstanding, of course).
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Please do not confuse what is a discipline of the Church with that which is scriptural or historical. I grew up when we categorically did not eat meat on Fridays. And because I grew up in New Orleans, let me assure you it was no sacrifice. We were taught that since it was no sacrifice that we should do something else - fast, pray, not watch TV.
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Volodymyr_988
Guest
In St. Matthew’s Gospel Our Lord assumes that we will.
“When you fast…” Matt 6:16
Abstinence is just a mitigated form of fasting.
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arieh0310
Guest
If you look at 14:1-15:13 in context, it is obvious that Paul is being tolerant of Jewish Christians who have a tough time giving up their permanent food abstentions due to mosaic food laws. This has nothing to do with the Church imposing temporary (once a week) abstinences for penance and devotion.
Again, if you were to simply look at the verses in context you will note that God sees sacrifices as abhorrent only when they are given to Him not from internal repentance but simply outward ritual observance. Just look at Matt. 6:1-6, “When you give alms,” or Matt. 6:16-18, “When you fast.” The Old Testament extols penance too, Joel 2:12-13, “Return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping.”
The Catholic practice of fasting for penance is in perfect continuity with the OT and NT practice. (Rom 8:17)
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war_eagle
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No, it doesn’t say anything about the church imposing it’s man-made traditions, but it does say that, ultimately, it is no sin to eat meat on a given day, or to not eat meat on a given day.
That’s actually not what it says. It says that man-ordered acts of penance are not nearly as important as it is to follow what the Lord says.
I thought Roman Catholics believed that Jesus already purchased the atonement for us (er, the fairytale of Purgatory notwithstanding, of course).
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wifeandmomoftwo
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brotherhrolf
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War Eagle? Auburn? Right?
Have you ever thought about what your Anglo-Saxon or Scot-Irish ancestors might have experienced during the Middle
Ages? I’m not going to argue theology here, I’m going to argue history. You can sit back and argue scripture all day long but where the foot meets the pavement it is something entirely different.
Did you ever sit back and think that some of the disciplines of the Catholic Church (and by extension those of your ancestors and no, I am not going to let you escape the fact that your ancestors were Catholic [imagine that]) are based in medieval agriculture?
Do you honestly think that your ancestors did not have to parse out their food to make it through the winter? Do you honestly think that the realities of life in a non-Mediterranean area would not adapt themselves to the practices and disciplines of the the Church?
We can get in three crops here and I suspect that even up in north Alabama, y’all come close. But what about our ancestors in England, Ireland, Scotland? How much food did they have in storage come February (and Lent and fasting)?
If you’ve got to suffer why not offer it up? Fasting is a discipline of our Church - and one that your ancestors practiced. Scripture is a non-starter here in light of history.
Have you ever thought about what your Anglo-Saxon or Scot-Irish ancestors might have experienced during the Middle
Ages? I’m not going to argue theology here, I’m going to argue history. You can sit back and argue scripture all day long but where the foot meets the pavement it is something entirely different.
Did you ever sit back and think that some of the disciplines of the Catholic Church (and by extension those of your ancestors and no, I am not going to let you escape the fact that your ancestors were Catholic [imagine that]) are based in medieval agriculture?
Do you honestly think that your ancestors did not have to parse out their food to make it through the winter? Do you honestly think that the realities of life in a non-Mediterranean area would not adapt themselves to the practices and disciplines of the the Church?
We can get in three crops here and I suspect that even up in north Alabama, y’all come close. But what about our ancestors in England, Ireland, Scotland? How much food did they have in storage come February (and Lent and fasting)?
If you’ve got to suffer why not offer it up? Fasting is a discipline of our Church - and one that your ancestors practiced. Scripture is a non-starter here in light of history.
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Brenda_V
Guest
Oh, Markstorm was probably joking but it was totally unnecessary in this discussion.
Not being a sacrifice (giving up flesh meat) is what I was taught was why we went to a “penance” of our choice in the US. As we became a wealthier country eating fish became more like what you did in New Orleans, eating all the crabs and lobsters etc.
Brenda V.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
No, it had nothing to do with being wealthier down here but everything to do with the fact that we had nature’s bounty at our disposal. How we children complained when my mother served fish sticks or tuna salad instead of shrimp creole or gumbo.
I went to a Catholic grade school - seafood was so plentiful that we seldom had fish sticks or codfish cakes. In high school (in the French Quarter) the Brothers served lettuce and tomato poboys in addition to fried shrimp and fried oyster. Even the lettuce and tomato poboys with pickles was not a sacrifice.
I spent many a lunch hour in prayer in the Brother’s chapel as a member of the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart.
I went to a Catholic grade school - seafood was so plentiful that we seldom had fish sticks or codfish cakes. In high school (in the French Quarter) the Brothers served lettuce and tomato poboys in addition to fried shrimp and fried oyster. Even the lettuce and tomato poboys with pickles was not a sacrifice.
I spent many a lunch hour in prayer in the Brother’s chapel as a member of the Confraternity of the Sacred Heart.
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arieh0310
Guest
You must have a reading disability, that section of Romans (and many others) are clearly addressed to Jewish Christian practices of continuing with the ritual purity laws of Deuteronomy. Paul wraps up his argument over food with discussions of how the Gentiles are included in the new covenant along with the Jews.
The sacrifices and burnt offerings that the Lord takes not delight in were proscribed in Deuteronomy. They are not the man made traditions but ordinances that Moses, under the direction of God, made obligatory on the people that the Lord is refusing to accept.
Also, fasting from meat on days of the week are not “man made traditions” but apostolic tradition. The Didache (written around 70-90 AD), The Shepherd of Hermas (90-100 AD), Clement of Rome (late 1st century), Justin Martyr (mid second century) all clearly talk about fasting from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays (as opposed to Mondays and Thursdays of the Jews).
He has already made atonement for all the sins of the entire world. It is up to us to apply his merits to our lives (Protestants believe this too because not everyone gets to heaven, only those who do the “sinners prayer” or whatever). Catholics know that he has purchased our salvation but we must suffer with him (Rom 8:17), persevere (Matt. 10:22), when we fall go to confession (John 20:23), we must have a faith formed in love (Gal 5:6)
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war_eagle
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Funny thing about personal attacks. Once you make them, people tend not to care what you have to say.
Goodbye and welcome to my ignore list.
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war_eagle
Guest
Now there’s a Fruedian slip if ever I heard one. I actually may have to use that one in my sig on another board.
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arieh0310
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It wasn’t a personal attack, just an observation. If Paul talks about dietary laws then sums it up with a plea for people to realize that the Gospel is for Gentiles too, then he is talking about mosaic ritual purity laws. To read that as a rebuke of penitential fasting betrays a reading problem. Sorry if that is offensive.
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