Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

[JonNC]

In a sense both sides of this issue are right. On the one hand, Protestants seem to depend only on Romans 10, and Catholics depend on Matthew 25. If you understand Faith to mean a trust or confidence in Jesus and His death and resurrection that we have achieved righteousness. That’s the easy part. **But clearly Matthew 25 sets more standards for being saved and it entails action beyond mere belief. "For I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink. . ."I was hungry and you gave me to eat., . . " Attached to these injunctions are certain sanctions that will follow if we ignore the needs of our fellow man., and we will face eternal punishment. Couple this with Matthew 22: 37- 40 and you have the Catholic view of salvation. What is significant about this is that in loving God and our fellow man, we are also saving ourselves and our true meaning as people of God. We save our meaning and our dignity. For it is in loving, we are most like God, for God is Love. Read the Gospel of John.

From the early centuries, the Church understood this in building hospitals, providing soup kitchens, provision for the homeless, shelters for abused women and children, and on and on in the countless numbers of charities sponsored by the Church to this day./**QUOTE]

Would a Catholic consider this, what I’ve bolded, as part of justification?

Lutherans would call this sanctification. No less necessary, however.

Jon

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I think the notion that salvation is a process is probably where the biggest difference is between the two views on salvation. The rest just seems to be word play.

Well, it’s a bit more than mere word play, but I think I get your point here.

Stouts989:

I don’t think the Bible teaches that we can lose our salvation once we are saved though. The security of the elect and their justification before God is a promise from God.

I have no doubt that once we are saved we cannot lose salvation. Where we differ is upon when salvation is acheived… I believe it is at the end of the race, and not at some point along the way. I concur that the security of the elect is a promise from God. We can do nothing to change that. But we can only hope and and have a moral certainty that we will be saved by His grace. The elect are for God to know.

Stouts989:

Just like Jesus promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. I also believe this applies to our salvation, because Jesus says He will lose none (referring to His sheep).

Once again, I agree that Jesus will lose no one. However, we can make a conscious decision to turn away from Him, and if we persist in that posture Jesus will not force us into heaven. Are those who turn away the elect? Obviously not.

Stouts989:

Just as we see false teachers and doctrines within the church of Jesus…the church hasn’t completely failed in spreading the truth of the Gospel.

Again, I agree. Where we have some disagreement is upon which doctrines (not all, but some) are false.

Stouts989:

From what I’ve seen and read most of the issues about salvation between catholics and protestants is because of ignorance on both parties to what the official stance is on salvation and also among protestants churches and the variations on the view of salvation. Its rather crazy and unsettling. The main reason I’m here is to try to eliminate as much ignorance on my part.

And I welcome your presence here. For my part, I do my best to state the reasons for my hope, and I try always to do it with charity, but I have my human limits and my pride and my own set of biases, God help me. I think that what is most uplifting to all stripes of Christians on these boards is that we can assert our beliefs in confidence and, if done with mutual respect and in Christ, we are all edified.

Stouts989:

From Sola Fide though, I understand it as the works only come after we are saved. We are not saved by works, or a partition; works and faith.

I concur that this is a difference of opinion on the matter. But may I ask you, if one says they have faith, but they have no works, are they saved? I think we would both reach the same conclusion from separate starting points. I would say the person - although perhaps initially justified - lost that right relationship with God and is no longer in a state of grace. You may conclude the person never had saving faith in the first place and therefore lost nothing. Whichever road - both of us would talk to this person about coming to know Jesus Christ and establishing a real and saving personal relationship with Him, right?

Stouts989:

God knows if we are saved our not…he chose us in the first place. We don’t need to prove to Him that we are saved with our works, He knows. Though we are rewarded in heaven by what we do with what God has granted us. Our works are a sign to believers and non-believers of the regenerate work of the Holy Spirit within us. A sign of a true and saving faith.

I would not disagree with this, but I would add that the works - while a sign to other believers and non-believers - also do play a role in our salvation that is as necessary as faith. It is what makes faith the kind of faith that saves, and it is not by our works apart from Christ, but our good works done in and through Christ that have any efficacy in this regard.

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

If God credited Abraham as righteous, or right in the sight of God, because of his belief. Then Abraham is saved from the rightful judgement of God…no? And this happened while circumcised?..no, while uncircumcised!

Yes, and what an active faith Abraham had… he left his father’s home and journeyed across the desert following God… an active faith that was credited to him as righteousness. He did not sit in his father’s house and contemplate the greatness of God… he acted in response to God’s love even to the point of nearly completing the sacrifice of his own son. This active faith (a faith manifested by action) is what was credited to him as righteousness. That is saving faith, I agree. But it is not apart from good works.

Stouts989:

Praise God!

Amen!

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Would a Catholic consider this, what I’ve bolded, as part of justification?.. Lutherans would call this sanctification. No less necessary, however.

As a Catholic, I would not draw the distinction between salvation and sanctification that you have. I would see all of this as part of a single process that begins with initial justification at baptism and ends at death with salvation through Jesus Christ (or with eternal separation from Him). I know this is over-simplifying, but I was trying to be succinct.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

As a Catholic, I would not draw the distinction between salvation and sanctification that you have. I would see all of this as part of a single process that begins with initial justification at baptism and ends at death with salvation through Jesus Christ (or with eternal separation from Him). I know this is over-simplifying, but I was trying to be succinct.

Peace,
Robert

Yes, Robert, I understand. This sort of points to the distinction we make. Lutherans will separate sanctification from justification, so we therein find sola fide. Justified by grace alone through alone in Christ alone. Yet, we do not deny the importance of good works, of confession, etc, because they are critical to maintaining that saving faith, and growing in grace. Without participation in our sanctification, we most certainly lose saving faith, replaced by a dead faith that cannot save.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[Stouts989]

I have no doubt that once we are saved we cannot lose salvation. Where we differ is upon when salvation is acheived… I believe it is at the end of the race, and not at some point along the way. I concur that the security of the elect is a promise from God. We can do nothing to change that. But we can only hope and and have a moral certainty that we will be saved by His grace. The elect are for God to know.

When salvation is achieved is defiantly the big difference. When does Justification take place in the view of the CC?..curious.

I believe that salvation occurs at the moment of justification. Because, what are we being saved from? We are being saved from the righteous judgment of God. Once we are proclaimed by God as righteous or justified for our sin…we are saved from that righteous judgment…no? So maybe its a matter of justification?

Once again, I agree that Jesus will lose no one. However, we can make a conscious decision to turn away from Him, and if we persist in that posture Jesus will not force us into heaven. Are those who turn away the elect? Obviously not.

Again, I think scripture is clear that anyone who would make that “conscious” decision to turn away from God was never with God to begin with.

Again, I agree. Where we have some disagreement is upon which doctrines (not all, but some) are false.

Well, sure. But we can both agree that they are false priest, pastors, ministers, etc within the catholic church and all other denominations around the globe. God allowed these people to become leaders of a church, but yet we wouldn’t discredit the catholic church or any other church as a hole because of a select few.

And I welcome your presence here. For my part, I do my best to state the reasons for my hope, and I try always to do it with charity, but I have my human limits and my pride and my own set of biases, God help me. I think that what is most uplifting to all stripes of Christians on these boards is that we can assert our beliefs in confidence and, if done with mutual respect and in Christ, we are all edified.

Well I’ve defiantly have enjoy this conversion the most since joining the forums. I appreciate your time, patients, and grace in discussing faith matters. Its been an encouraging discussion!

I concur that this is a difference of opinion on the matter. But may I ask you, if one says they have faith, but they have no works, are they saved? I think we would both reach the same conclusion from separate starting points. I would say the person - although perhaps initially justified - lost that right relationship with God and is no longer in a state of grace. You may conclude the person never had saving faith in the first place and therefore lost nothing. Whichever road - both of us would talk to this person about coming to know Jesus Christ and establishing a real and saving personal relationship with Him, right?

Yes, I agree that the end result would be the same. We both would be encouraging this individual to come to saving personal relationship with Christ. But…

I do think that saying the person once had a saving faith then lost it by some means does challenge the complete work of Christ in an individual. I think it challenges the power and nature of God’s grace and I think it challenges the words of Jesus and teachings of the Apostles.

Yes, and what an active faith Abraham had… he left his father’s home and journeyed across the desert following God… an active faith that was credited to him as righteousness. He did not sit in his father’s house and contemplate the greatness of God… he acted in response to God’s love even to the point of nearly completing the sacrifice of his own son. This active faith (a faith manifested by action) is what was credited to him as righteousness. That is saving faith, I agree. But it is not apart from good works.

But his active faith that was credited to him as righteiousness isn’t what scripture tells us. It saids his belief is what was credited to him as righteous. Abraham wouldn’t have been able to have such an active faith unless he believed the words of God first. I think Hebrews 11 charts this out nicely for us.

Scriptures tell us that God credited Abraham as righteous due to his belief before he was even circumcised. Abraham hadn’t even obeyed God’s own covenant with His people yet, but was still proclaimed righteous before God because he first believed God…then proved his belief by His works.

Thanks again!

 

[a_priori]

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase “faith alone” occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
2. Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
3. Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
4. Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
5. Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
6. Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
7. Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
10. Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
11. Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
12. Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

Like time/space or the wave/particle duality of light, faith and works are two manifestations of the same thing.

 

[jpaul1953]

Roman Catholics often mention that the Bible never says we are saved by faith alone and that the phrase “faith alone” occurs only once in James where it says that we are not saved by faith alone. If this is so, then why do the Protestants say we are justified by faith alone and not by works? Because the Bible teaches that we are justified by faith alone, and not by works.

The following is a list of verses about being saved by faith. Please take note that faith and works are contrasted. In other words, we are saved by faith “not by works” and “apart from works”, etc. The point is that there are only two options. We are saved by faith alone or we are not. Since we have faith and works (both conceptually and in practice), then we are either saved by faith alone or by faith and works. There is no other option.

1. Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
2. Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
3. Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
4. Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith.”
5. Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
6. Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
7. Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal.3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
10. Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
11. Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
12. Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.

Christalone,

Paul is referring to works of the law as obedience to the Mosaic law. Paul is clear as all other apostlesthat the correct way to comprehend good works is 'faith working through love.

We are saved by accepting the fullness of God’s grace to us, which includes faith and good works of love as the main thing that grace does for us. Remember The virtues of faith, hope, and love (charity). And the greatest of these is LOVE, not faith.

I’ll show you my faith through my works. Does this ring a bell.

jpaul1953

 

[Bill_Pick]

You can save time if you read the thread on what catholis bbelieve. it will save us all a lot of time.
The Catholic Church does not teach Catholics to worship Mary or the Saints, nor to worship idols.
The Early Church Fathers accurately received correct doctrine and passed it on to the next generation.
Even Protestants accept certain Catholic doctrinal formulations, for example, the Trinity.
Catholics do not believe in salvation by works.IT may help if you write them down.

 

[Stouts989]

You can save time if you read the thread on what catholis bbelieve. it will save us all a lot of time.
The Catholic Church does not teach Catholics to worship Mary or the Saints, nor to worship idols.
The Early Church Fathers accurately received correct doctrine and passed it on to the next generation.
Even Protestants accept certain Catholic doctrinal formulations, for example, the Trinity.
Catholics do not believe in salvation by works.IT may help if you write them down.

The questions being asked here isn’t about what, but rather why.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Why don’t you settle this by reading what Jesus has to say in Mt. 25:31-46. This is getting to be like the chicken and the egg argument. Regardless of which came first, works or faith, Jesus says works are necessary to enter the pearly gates and that’s good enough for me.

 

[Bill_Pick]

The questions being asked here isn’t about what, but rather why.

Can you please give chapter and verse for your statement

 

[Stouts989]

Can you please give chapter and verse for your statement

Ok I’ll be clearer.

The questions being asked isn’t what the CC believes…but rather why.

 

[Bill_Pick]

OH you must get a lot better then that I,ll be waiting for the chapter and verse, LOL

 

[Stouts989]

OH you must get a lot better then that I,ll be waiting for the chapter and verse, LOL

What are you talking about?

Chapter and verse for what?

 

[Bill_Pick]

What are you talking about?

Chapter and verse for what?

Biblical scholars tell us that the last book of the New Testament was not written until the end of the 1st century A.D., that is, until around the year 100 A.D. (9) This fact would leave roughly a 65-year gap between Our Lord’s Ascension into Heaven and the completion of the Bible as we know it. The question that begs to be asked, therefore

 

[Robert_in_SD]

When salvation is achieved is defiantly the big difference. When does Justification take place in the view of the CC?..curious.

A person is initially justified when they are baptized. At that point your relationship with God is restored in Christ and you are in a state of grace. A person can thereafter lose that state of grace through serious sin. One’s state of grace is restored through repentence and forgiveness (the normative method for Catholics is the sacrament of confession). In the same way that sin weakens and ultimately can destroy our relationship with God, good works can strengthen our relationship with God, increase the grace of God in our life, remove the desire to sin, and bring us greater hope and assurance of salvation. Catholics believe that justification is more than simply an imputed righteousness, but a real change that takes place as a result of God’s freely given grace working in and through us.

Stouts989:

I believe that salvation occurs at the moment of justification. Because, what are we being saved from? We are being saved from the righteous judgment of God. Once we are proclaimed by God as righteous or justified for our sin…we are saved from that righteous judgment…no? So maybe its a matter of justification?

As I noted above, Catholic theology sees justification as more than just a declaration of righteousness. It is a real change in a person’s being. So, in a sense, one is saved at the moment of baptism if - immediately after baptism they die. They would die absolutely filled with the grace of God, and free from original and personal sin. However, most of us survive our baptism and go on to lead lives that are subject to some amount of sinning. That sinning also has a real impact on who we are and our relationship with God. So, although I am made justified by baptism, I must continue to live in Christ and not reject God’s love by my actions (or inactions).

Stouts989:

Again, I think scripture is clear that anyone who would make that “conscious” decision to turn away from God was never with God to begin with.

I disagree. I think there are those who had faith in him - real faith - but then turned away or were seduced away. I believe Judas was a man who had faith in Christ, but later rejected Him (perhaps at the end of John, Chapter 6). I don’t think it’s fair to say that anyone who “rejects” Christ never really knew Him. I think that is to overlook the real danger that sin presents in our lives.

Stouts989:

Yes, I agree that the end result would be the same. We both would be encouraging this individual to come to saving personal relationship with Christ. But…

I do think that saying the person once had a saving faith then lost it by some means does challenge the complete work of Christ in an individual. I think it challenges the power and nature of God’s grace and I think it challenges the words of Jesus and teachings of the Apostles.

I understand this and I would not want you to come to doubt any of these things by such a conclusion. But on the other hand, do not conclude that Catholics - by suggesting that a person can make shipwreck of their faith - are doubting any of this as well. It’s simply a matter of how each of us interprets the Scriptures in light of our faith tradition. I do not doubt the completed work of Christ, nor do I doubt the nature of God’s grace. I just believe that it is imparted in a different way, and I can quote Scripture to support that position just as efficiently and effectively as you can quote Scripture to support your position. Ultimately, it comes down to a question of authority. Whose interpretation of Scripture do you believe?

Stouts989:

But his active faith that was credited to him as righteiousness isn’t what scripture tells us. It saids his belief is what was credited to him as righteous. Abraham wouldn’t have been able to have such an active faith unless he believed the words of God first.

That’s not my point. I agree that without his belief he would have never left the starting blocks. I’m saying that his belief was credited to Him as righteousness because his response was to act on that belief and do God’s will. It does not say Abraham “proved” his belief by good works. Who does he need to prove his belief to, …God? God already knows his belief is righteous because God knows all things at all times. God does not need to wait and see if Abraham wil get up and follow God into the wilderness. God knows he will/is/did.

Again, I appreciate your firm belief in Christ. But your arguments in favor of your position come down to, as I noted above, the question of whose interpretation should be followed… the Catholic interpretation or one of the reformers’ interpretations. I simply do not see Hebrews 11 as supporting sola fide. Works are more than just “proof” of salvation or residue or byproduct. They are as necessary to salvation as the grace, through faith, by which they become efficacious.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Lawrence_Petrus]

In a sense both sides of this issue are right. On the one hand, Protestants seem to depend only on Romans 10, and Catholics depend on Matthew 25. If you understand Faith to mean a trust or confidence in Jesus and His death and resurrection that we have achieved righteousness. That’s the easy part. But clearly Matthew 25 sets more standards for being saved and it entails action beyond mere belief. "For I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink. . ."I was hungry and you gave me to eat., . . " Attached to these injunctions are certain sanctions that will follow if we ignore the needs of our fellow man., and we will face eternal punishment. Couple this with Matthew 22: 37- 40 and you have the Catholic view of salvation. What is significant about this is that in loving God and our fellow man, we are also saving ourselves and our true meaning as people of God. We save our meaning and our dignity. For it is in loving, we are most like God, for God is Love. Read the Gospel of John.

From the early centuries, the Church understood this in building hospitals, providing soup kitchens, provision for the homeless, shelters for abused women and children, and on and on in the countless numbers of charities sponsored by the Church to this day.