Are we saved by faith alone, or do we need works, too?

[Bookcat]

Regarding Faith and Works in St. Paul

Pope Benedict XVI

(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)

and one from a few years earlier: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Philthy]

Obviously. I’m certainly not OSAS.

Of course not - I never suspected as much. I was just reacting to your original “and nothing else” terminology regarding the grace of Baptism and how someone following the thread might understand what you wrote.

I think we’re really close.

Excellent!

I want to discourage this notion that we will somehow loose our Baptismal Grace “gradually” by an ongoing failure to perform good works (which is what a lot of people seem to think).

I can see how your articulations have attempted to address this concern. I would respectfully suggest, however, that in attempting to address this you have potentially created an equally undesirable notion to your audience - that none of us need works and that works have nothing to do with salvation. Some might erroneously take away from your comments that all we need to do is be baptized and make sure we go to Confession right before we die - that choosing NOT to do “the good works He has prepared” (cf Eph 2:10) has no eternal consequence. I know that’s not the fullness of what you believe, and I know you have no intention of promoting that conclusion but it is, IMHO, what some might distort your words to say.

Sin doesn’t work “gradually” (disposition to sin may be gradual, but sin itself is either mortal or venial). If we loose our Baptismal Grace through a sin of omission, it will be just ONE sin of omission that does it (the mortally sinful one). A million venial sins of omission do not add up to one mortal sin of omission. I think your statement started out good, but left itself open to this “quota” interpretation in the second part.

I can understand your concern. You are correct that venial sins to quantitatively add up to mortal sin and that is worth pointing out. But the full truth is that for most of us God - in His Wisdom - has ordered our mortal lives such that there is, known only to Him, a sort of “quota” of good works for each of us (except those who die immediately after Baptism). He doesn’t leave us an individual list of the events and times we will be tested through them. Instead, He has given us the guides of Scripture and Church teaching to form our consciences so that we can know the good; and , most importantly, his Grace to interact with our free will in the mysterious place known as our conscience (credit to Guanophore) where we choose either to love Him (and neighbor) or to love ourselves (cf 1Cor 10:13). Even more, our cups truly “runneth over” as He has also left us the precious gift of his Mercy, Forgiveness and restoration in the Sacrament of Confession for those times that we spurn the gift of grace with which He draws us ever closer to our true good, Himself.
Comments, critique, accusations of heresy and outrage welcomed.

This thread is about salvation. I have no doubt (and the Church clearly teaches) that our experience of heaven will be affected by how we live our life on earth. Nobody in heaven will feel cheated or jealous of anybody else, and nobody will regret that he didn’t live a better life so that he would have 24-hour access to the pizza buffet, but it will be different, and those who live a righteous life will be somehow “better off.” But this is out of scope.

ISTM that our experience of Heaven cannot be separated from our salvation. I could be wrong and it could simply be another semantics issue, but if those who live a “righteous life will somehow (be) better off” then it seems that living a righteous life affects our salvation. Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I think it’s important for all the faithful to understand that choosing to love God and neighbor by grace through faith in the performance of good works has eternal consequences, no?

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Of course not - I never suspected as much. I was just reacting to your original “and nothing else” terminology regarding the grace of Baptism and how someone following the thread might understand what you wrote.

Excellent!

I can see how your articulations have attempted to address this concern. I would respectfully suggest, however, that in attempting to address this you have potentially created an equally undesirable notion to your audience - that none of us need works and that works have nothing to do with salvation. Some might erroneously take away from your comments that all we need to do is be baptized and make sure we go to Confession right before we die - that choosing NOT to do “the good works He has prepared” (cf Eph 2:10) has no eternal consequence. I know that’s not the fullness of what you believe, and I know you have no intention of promoting that conclusion but it is, IMHO, what some might distort your words to say.

I can understand your concern. You are correct that venial sins to quantitatively add up to mortal sin and that is worth pointing out. But the full truth is that for most of us God - in His Wisdom - has ordered our mortal lives such that there is, known only to Him, a sort of “quota” of good works for each of us (except those who die immediately after Baptism). He doesn’t leave us an individual list of the events and times we will be tested through them. Instead, He has given us the guides of Scripture and Church teaching to form our consciences so that we can know the good; and , most importantly, his Grace to interact with our free will in the mysterious place known as our conscience (credit to Guanophore) where we choose either to love Him (and neighbor) or to love ourselves (cf 1Cor 10:13). Even more, our cups truly “runneth over” as He has also left us the precious gift of his Mercy, Forgiveness and restoration in the Sacrament of Confession for those times that we spurn the gift of grace with which He draws us ever closer to our true good, Himself.
Comments, critique, accusations of heresy and outrage welcomed.

ISTM that our experience of Heaven cannot be separated from our salvation. I could be wrong and it could simply be another semantics issue, but if those who live a “righteous life will somehow (be) better off” then it seems that living a righteous life affects our salvation. Again, I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I think it’s important for all the faithful to understand that choosing to love God and neighbor by grace through faith in the performance of good works has eternal consequences, no?

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

I meant to say…
I can understand your concern. You are correct that venial sins do NOT quantitatively add up to mortal sin, and that is worth pointing out. …

 

[Ignatius]

Need some info

What does the Bible say?
James 2:17-10
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?