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Philthy
Guest
Hi Christidiscipl1!
The rich young man claimed to be following all the commandments, but he was not in reality following them. The entirety of the law is summed as follows: You are to love God with all your heart soul mind and strength and to love your neighbor as your self. In requesting that he 1. Give all his possessions to the poor and 2. Follow me, Christ put his claim to keeping the commandments to the test. If he truly loved God he would have “followed” Christ and if he truly loved his neighbor he would have had no problem giving to the poor. He failed on both counts. May we not make the same mistake!
blessings
P
Porknpie
Guest
Quite accurate. Nor did I imply anything different than Church teaching.
But per my previous post, the text does not say that the man was not saved. Saying so was and is, adding to the text.
P
Porknpie
Guest
Christi -
This is a man-made thought, new to Christianity in the 16th century. It’s a departure from what Christ taught his apostles, and what the apostles taught their descendants.
We are saved by Grace, Through Faith, Working in Love.
Do you believe in once saved, always saved?
P
Porknpie
Guest
Egg-actly PoorKnight. Without works, Abraham’s faith would have been incomplete. This is the Catholic position.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gachristian. You said in post 51 . . .
QUOTE:
Secondly you can’t transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law.
But I am not saying you must transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law.
I am saying ANY work done UNDER YOUR OWN POWER is inadequate.
I’m saying God MUST be at WORK IN YOU.
This is a GRACE. These are the works I am alluding to–like St. Paul.
PHILIPPIANS 2:12a 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation . . .
bigyikes:!!!)
HOW can we possibly DO this?? Fortunately St. Paul tells us in the very next sentence how. By God WORKING within us!
PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Works NEED to flow from grace.
Yes they flow from “faith” but as St. Paul said in 1st Corinthians 13, they had better flow from MORE that “faith” otherwise you “have nothing” (if you had salvation you would have something) and you ARE nothing.
Even if you disagree with the Catholic position, I don’t want you walking away from this thread thinking Catholics can “earn” their way to Heaven (without God’s grace) under any circumstances—whether it be Old Covenant “works of law” or any other “works of law” done under your own power.
The Protestant tradition MUST ignore St. Paul’s other statements about “works” to invent a tradition of justification by faith alone.
Why not just take St. Paul at his word? Why not just believe ALL of St. Paul’s verses?
Why take ALL these admonitions of St. Paul, and pretend they mean anything less than exactly what they say they mean?
You say good works are optional.
St. Paul NEVER says that!
St. Paul says . . .
1st CORINTHIANS 15:1b-2 1 . . . I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain.
1st TIMOTHY 4:16 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
You already pointed out Ephesians 2:8. Let me reaffirm Ephesians 2:10 too.
**
EPHESIANS 2:10** 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
WHY were we created? For good works. (I am not saying we don’t need faith too. We DO NEED faith too.)
1st TIMOTHY 2:13-15 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
ROMANS 2:5-7, 13 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
2nd CORINTHIANS 9:8-10 8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written, “He scatters abroad, he gives to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever.” 10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.
Please gachristian. I want to challenge you to go back above and read and re-read St. Paul’s verses several times.
Why try to posit Ephesians 2:8 but stop there?
Read the above verses and honestly ask yourself if St. Paul is teaching an “optional item” motif for works or possibly is there something MORE.
Ask yourself WHY using the word “faith” in the context of an intellectual assent without the necessity of actually living out the Gospel was NEVER used as “alone” EVER for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Ask yourself “WHY is that”?
Jesus says if we “love Him” we will keep His commandments.
The TWO Great Commandments of course are love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and the second is like it—love your neighbor as yourself.
Why didn’t Jesus merely say of the first of the TWO Great Commandments merely to have “faith” in the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind?
QUOTE:
Secondly you can’t transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law.
But I am not saying you must transfer works of the law from Galatians and say works in Eph 2:8-9 is works of the law.
I am saying ANY work done UNDER YOUR OWN POWER is inadequate.
I’m saying God MUST be at WORK IN YOU.
This is a GRACE. These are the works I am alluding to–like St. Paul.
PHILIPPIANS 2:12a 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation . . .
bigyikes:!!!)HOW can we possibly DO this?? Fortunately St. Paul tells us in the very next sentence how. By God WORKING within us!
PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Works NEED to flow from grace.
Yes they flow from “faith” but as St. Paul said in 1st Corinthians 13, they had better flow from MORE that “faith” otherwise you “have nothing” (if you had salvation you would have something) and you ARE nothing.
Even if you disagree with the Catholic position, I don’t want you walking away from this thread thinking Catholics can “earn” their way to Heaven (without God’s grace) under any circumstances—whether it be Old Covenant “works of law” or any other “works of law” done under your own power.
The Protestant tradition MUST ignore St. Paul’s other statements about “works” to invent a tradition of justification by faith alone.
Why not just take St. Paul at his word? Why not just believe ALL of St. Paul’s verses?
Why take ALL these admonitions of St. Paul, and pretend they mean anything less than exactly what they say they mean?
You say good works are optional.
St. Paul NEVER says that!
St. Paul says . . .
1st CORINTHIANS 15:1b-2 1 . . . I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, 2 by which you are saved, if you hold it fast–unless you believed in vain.
1st TIMOTHY 4:16 16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
You already pointed out Ephesians 2:8. Let me reaffirm Ephesians 2:10 too.
**
EPHESIANS 2:10** 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
WHY were we created? For good works. (I am not saying we don’t need faith too. We DO NEED faith too.)
1st TIMOTHY 2:13-15 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
ROMANS 2:5-7, 13 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.
2nd CORINTHIANS 9:8-10 8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written, “He scatters abroad, he gives to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever.” 10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.
Please gachristian. I want to challenge you to go back above and read and re-read St. Paul’s verses several times.
Why try to posit Ephesians 2:8 but stop there?
Read the above verses and honestly ask yourself if St. Paul is teaching an “optional item” motif for works or possibly is there something MORE.
Ask yourself WHY using the word “faith” in the context of an intellectual assent without the necessity of actually living out the Gospel was NEVER used as “alone” EVER for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Ask yourself “WHY is that”?
Jesus says if we “love Him” we will keep His commandments.
The TWO Great Commandments of course are love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and the second is like it—love your neighbor as yourself.
Why didn’t Jesus merely say of the first of the TWO Great Commandments merely to have “faith” in the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind?
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gachristian.
If you go to your minister or your local Protestant Bible study and quote the bold portions of the last post (post 86 here) they will tell you that you are WRONG.
If you then give them the whole verse & associated citations, they’ll now say you are “right” . . .BUT . . . your “interpretation” is wrong. ("But I haven’t “interpreted anything yet!”)
They will go through many circumlocutions or proverbial “backflips” to DENY the plain meaning of these SACRED SCRIPTURE verses.
Why?
Because the verses don’t fit into their tradition.
A SAVING Faith is Necessarily OBEDIENT
gachristian. According to St. Paul you CANNOT have “faith” without the “work” of “preaching”.
With a saving faith, you NEED works. That’s EXACTLY WHY St. Paul mentions “OBEDIENCE of faith” the very first time he uses the word “faith” and the very last time he uses the word “faith” in his letter to the Romans (Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26).
These are things never preached in a Protestant service. At least the assorted Protestant services I have been to.
Faith NEEDS the WORK of Preaching
Again: They will go through many circumlocutions or proverbial “backflips” to DENY the plain meaning of these SACRED SCRIPTURE verses.
Why? Because the verses don’t fit into their tradition.
gachristian. According to St. Paul you CANNOT have “faith” without the “work” of “preaching”.
St. Paul tells us faith itself comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ in the context of the preaching of “these men” and “they” who “are sent”!
Your minister or Bible study pals (or whoever) are going to have to look at this and deny it, re-define it, or say, “well the work of preaching isn’t REALLY a “work”.
They CANNOT accept the above verses of St. Paul at face value! It would cause too much cognitive dissonance. It would cause them to go “tilt” interiorly” to actually believe St. Paul just for what St. Paul is saying!
ROMANS 10:1, 14-17 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. . . . . 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
Faith comes from “men” who preach “Christ” who were “sent” and through their WORK of “preaching” that came from Christ Himself!
And I am asking you gachristian to prayerfully look over not what I say, but at what St. Paul says. I am asking you to as God, could these verses REALLY mean what they say they mean? You gachristian are here on this Catholic Forum site for a reason and “those guys” in your Bible study group (or whoever) are NOT here. God brought you here for a reason. If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart.
I am not asking you to be “anything” here. But I am asking you to BELIEVE all of St. Paul’s verses.
Many False Teachers Deny Necessity of Works Wrongly Using Writings of St. Paul
Heed the warnings of St. Peter regarding this chicanery or deception.
St. Peter warned against certain **“ignorant and unstable” men **that twist St. Paul’s writings and other Scriptures.
St. Peter warned that people; in following these “ignorant and unstable” men, can get “carried away” and you can even “lose your own stability”.
But how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who themselves lead people astray?
Fortunately Scripture tells us.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who
lead people astray as faith-LESS men . . . **but he didn’t. **
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who
lead people astray as hope-LESS men . . . **but he didn’t. **
So HOW DID St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men?
HOW DID St. Peter paint these guys who frequently use St. Paul’s writings and other passages (“as they do the other Scriptures”), that lead people astray?
St. Peter characterized them as LAW-LESS men!
2nd PETER 3:17 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless (athesmōn) men and lose your own stability.
2nd PETER 3:15-18 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2nd PETER 3:17 (From the NIV [A Protestant translation]) Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
More here.
If you go to your minister or your local Protestant Bible study and quote the bold portions of the last post (post 86 here) they will tell you that you are WRONG.
If you then give them the whole verse & associated citations, they’ll now say you are “right” . . .BUT . . . your “interpretation” is wrong. ("But I haven’t “interpreted anything yet!”)
They will go through many circumlocutions or proverbial “backflips” to DENY the plain meaning of these SACRED SCRIPTURE verses.
Why?
Because the verses don’t fit into their tradition.
A SAVING Faith is Necessarily OBEDIENT
gachristian. According to St. Paul you CANNOT have “faith” without the “work” of “preaching”.
With a saving faith, you NEED works. That’s EXACTLY WHY St. Paul mentions “OBEDIENCE of faith” the very first time he uses the word “faith” and the very last time he uses the word “faith” in his letter to the Romans (Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26).
These are things never preached in a Protestant service. At least the assorted Protestant services I have been to.
Faith NEEDS the WORK of Preaching
Again: They will go through many circumlocutions or proverbial “backflips” to DENY the plain meaning of these SACRED SCRIPTURE verses.
Why? Because the verses don’t fit into their tradition.
gachristian. According to St. Paul you CANNOT have “faith” without the “work” of “preaching”.
St. Paul tells us faith itself comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ in the context of the preaching of “these men” and “they” who “are sent”!
Your minister or Bible study pals (or whoever) are going to have to look at this and deny it, re-define it, or say, “well the work of preaching isn’t REALLY a “work”.
They CANNOT accept the above verses of St. Paul at face value! It would cause too much cognitive dissonance. It would cause them to go “tilt” interiorly” to actually believe St. Paul just for what St. Paul is saying!
ROMANS 10:1, 14-17 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. . . . . 14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? 15 And how can men preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.
Faith comes from “men” who preach “Christ” who were “sent” and through their WORK of “preaching” that came from Christ Himself!
And I am asking you gachristian to prayerfully look over not what I say, but at what St. Paul says. I am asking you to as God, could these verses REALLY mean what they say they mean? You gachristian are here on this Catholic Forum site for a reason and “those guys” in your Bible study group (or whoever) are NOT here. God brought you here for a reason. If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart.
I am not asking you to be “anything” here. But I am asking you to BELIEVE all of St. Paul’s verses.
Many False Teachers Deny Necessity of Works Wrongly Using Writings of St. Paul
Heed the warnings of St. Peter regarding this chicanery or deception.
St. Peter warned against certain **“ignorant and unstable” men **that twist St. Paul’s writings and other Scriptures.
St. Peter warned that people; in following these “ignorant and unstable” men, can get “carried away” and you can even “lose your own stability”.
But how did St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men who themselves lead people astray?
Fortunately Scripture tells us.
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who
lead people astray as faith-LESS men . . . **but he didn’t. **
St. Peter COULD have correctly characterized some “ignorant and unstable” men who
lead people astray as hope-LESS men . . . **but he didn’t. **
So HOW DID St. Peter characterize these “ignorant and unstable” men?
HOW DID St. Peter paint these guys who frequently use St. Paul’s writings and other passages (“as they do the other Scriptures”), that lead people astray?
St. Peter characterized them as LAW-LESS men!
2nd PETER 3:17 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless (athesmōn) men and lose your own stability.
2nd PETER 3:15-18 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2nd PETER 3:17 (From the NIV [A Protestant translation]) Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
More here.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gachristian. You also said (bold and ul mine):
Why not believe ALL the verses about Abraham and NOT ADD “alone” or “only”?
The verse does not say “faith ALONE”.
We ARE justified by faith. But nowhere do these verses say we are justified by “faith ALONE”.
The Abraham issue in Romans 4, is more complex but it does not teach justification by faith alone.
ROMANS 4:1-3 1 What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness
Romans 4, never says Abraham was justified by faith ALONE. St. Paul in Romans 4:3 quotes Genesis 15:6. (The context of “works” that do NOT justify here are works “according to the flesh”–specifically “circumcision” if we backed up a few verses).
GENESIS 15:3-7 3 And Abram said, “Behold, thou hast given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, “This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess.”
But if that is the moment Abraham was justified (remember justification is more than a moment, it is a process), why would Abraham be justified on a different occasion earlier in his life and earlier in Genesis?
(Hint: Because justification is a process and not merely a moment–a LIFELONG process)
HEBREWS 11:8 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go
(here we see that faith AND obedience again)
So in Hebrews 11, Paul is referring to a time when Abraham had “faith”. Remember “faith” justifies (but not faith ALONE) so Hebrews is referring to a time when Abraham was justified in Hebrews 11.
When did this faith in Abraham occur?
In Genesis 15 as St. Paul quoted in Romans 4? No.
Earlier, much earlier.
Abraham already posessed “faith” at least in Genesis 12. That’s when he was called out to a place to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was to go. That is the passage the book of Hebrews is referring to and it’s EARLIER that Genesis 15. Was Abraham justified in Genesis 15? Yes. St. Paul says so. Genesis 15 says so.
But was Abraham justified in Genesis 12 too? Yes! We can see that from the Book of Hebrews.
HEBREWS 11:8 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go
GENESIS 12:1-5 1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves. " 4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions which they had gathered, and the persons that they had gotten in Haran; and they set forth to go to the land of Canaan. When they had come to the land of Canaan,
Incidentally. Again here we see a saving faith in Abraham that is an obedient faith. A saving faith is necessarily completed by works.
Here is an excerpt from Steve Ray (a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism) concerning just this point.
He believed then too, but then you can’t conclude Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 ALONE. And if you can’t conclude Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 ALONE, then Romans 4:1-3 couldn’t be teaching justification by faith ALONE either.
Romans 4:1-3 doesn’t teach justification by faith ALONE and it never states Abraham was justified by faith ALONE!
But NO VERSE says this gachristian.
Why not believe ALL the verses about Abraham and NOT ADD “alone” or “only”?
The verse does not say “faith ALONE”.
We ARE justified by faith. But nowhere do these verses say we are justified by “faith ALONE”.
The Abraham issue in Romans 4, is more complex but it does not teach justification by faith alone.
ROMANS 4:1-3 1 What then shall we say about Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness
Romans 4, never says Abraham was justified by faith ALONE. St. Paul in Romans 4:3 quotes Genesis 15:6. (The context of “works” that do NOT justify here are works “according to the flesh”–specifically “circumcision” if we backed up a few verses).
GENESIS 15:3-7 3 And Abram said, “Behold, thou hast given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, “This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am the LORD who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess.”
But if that is the moment Abraham was justified (remember justification is more than a moment, it is a process), why would Abraham be justified on a different occasion earlier in his life and earlier in Genesis?
(Hint: Because justification is a process and not merely a moment–a LIFELONG process)
HEBREWS 11:8 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go
(here we see that faith AND obedience again)
So in Hebrews 11, Paul is referring to a time when Abraham had “faith”. Remember “faith” justifies (but not faith ALONE) so Hebrews is referring to a time when Abraham was justified in Hebrews 11.
When did this faith in Abraham occur?
In Genesis 15 as St. Paul quoted in Romans 4? No.
Earlier, much earlier.
Abraham already posessed “faith” at least in Genesis 12. That’s when he was called out to a place to receive as an inheritance, not knowing where he was to go. That is the passage the book of Hebrews is referring to and it’s EARLIER that Genesis 15. Was Abraham justified in Genesis 15? Yes. St. Paul says so. Genesis 15 says so.
But was Abraham justified in Genesis 12 too? Yes! We can see that from the Book of Hebrews.
HEBREWS 11:8 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go
GENESIS 12:1-5 1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves. " 4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions which they had gathered, and the persons that they had gotten in Haran; and they set forth to go to the land of Canaan. When they had come to the land of Canaan,
Incidentally. Again here we see a saving faith in Abraham that is an obedient faith. A saving faith is necessarily completed by works.
Here is an excerpt from Steve Ray (a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism) concerning just this point.
(see here and here for more of Steve Ray)
He believed then too, but then you can’t conclude Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 ALONE. And if you can’t conclude Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 ALONE, then Romans 4:1-3 couldn’t be teaching justification by faith ALONE either.
Romans 4:1-3 doesn’t teach justification by faith ALONE and it never states Abraham was justified by faith ALONE!
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
You’re not wrong. You asserted that the Church teaches, through the precepts, that we are likely to be in a state of mortal sin. I said this “might” be true, but I insist that it is not actually true.
Geocentrism “might” be true (as Robert Sungenis would argue), but I do not think it is actually true.
And I have done so. You’re welcome.
I have no such standard. I don’t represent my opinion as Church teaching. But, in this case, I am talking about Church non-teaching (what the Church has NOT taught). I can hardly cite Church teaching about what the Church hasn’t taught (because then it would be Church teaching). It’s logically contradictory.
And I have never disagreed. In fact, I have affirmed this many times.
Which does not forgive mortal sins (only, perhaps, venial sins, which do not condemn us). I thought we were talking about salvation.
No you didn’t. The Church has never taught that an act (including scandal) is mortally sinful by the nature of the act alone. You are overlaying your own opinion onto authentic Church doctrine to come to that conclusion.
We’ve discussed this before. When people come here asking about “works” they almost invariably mean acts of charity. You and I might realize that adhering to the precepts of the Church (which include Mass attendance and annual Confession) is a “work” but it is not an act of charity (it is more of a self-serving work). You’re getting overly technical and missing the intent of the question.
For the record, I have always maintain (and continue to maintain) that a deliberate disregard for the precepts of the Church are sins of omission which, given sufficient knowledge and consent, could be mortally sinful.
FWIW, I did ask my brother (a priest of the Diocese of Savannah) about sins of omission in the Confessional. He says the most common is the one you cited (missing Mass). He could not recall ever hearing a sin of omission confessed which did not involve a precept, but he admitted that he is able to forget much of what he hears (which he considers a blessing).
I have never confessed any such sin of omission (not involving a precept). Have you?
That may be true, but it is your opinion (as it is also mine). It is not the teaching of the Church.
If someone asks, “does the Church teach that our salvation is dependent on works (of charity)?” then the answer is NO. So, quit saying the answer is YES.
There is no separate teaching about mortal sin that applies to sins of omission. The conditions are the same as sins of commission (grave matter, full knowledge at the time, complete freewill consent).
Ah, much better. You have gone from “virtually all” to SOME. I can dispute “virtually all” as completely unfounded in Church doctrine. But I would not care to argue that NOBODY ever commits a mortal sin of neglect of a work of charity, so (by implication) that means that SOMEBODY probably does. So, with this statement, we are in perfect agreement in principle and would not dispute it (though I still maintain it is not doctrinal (de Fide) - I would place it at least as Sent. communis and possibly Sent. certa on Dr. Ott’s hierarchy).
J
James82
Guest
A couple of things here…
In observing the debate in this thread and a multitude of others it seems to me that the Protestant position needles at the Catholic and imputes beliefs on Catholics that they simply do not have and does not temper St. Paul’s words with the rest of the New Testament. Besides does not St. Paul himself say “Every man shall be rendered according to his work”? Rom 2:6.
While I can deeply empathize with someone of strong faith (although mine wavers at the worst of times), what is this hang up? This obsession with faith. It is one among many virtues that leads us to salvation. The Christian experience is so much more than trying to figure out a theological equation that equals salvation.
Regarding faith=works. I am going to speak from personal experience and say that I have never observed that in my own life. For example, the other day I wanted to clean the gutters of a family member. The only thing that prompted me to do this was love of this individual, nothing else, full stop. This love is clearly a manifestation of God’s grace residing in me (what little this vessel contains!), but it had nothing to do with faith in Christ Jesus as my salvation. So for me love=charitable works.
I had been mulling this over for weeks and the answer came through a personal experience, and I had not grasped it’s implication until well after the fact.
What the heck is work born of faith anyway? Really?!
If I have FAITH that Christ Jesus has allowed the Gates of Heaven to be opened to a wretch such as I, why would this prompt me to go do charitable works? The concept is actually quite laughable; and I’ll refrain lest I stumble by Satan into mockery.
St. Paul clearly distinguishes faith, hope, and love in Ch. 13 of 1st Cor. No Christian can deny that he puts love of God and fellow man as chief among the Christian virtues.
In observing the debate in this thread and a multitude of others it seems to me that the Protestant position needles at the Catholic and imputes beliefs on Catholics that they simply do not have and does not temper St. Paul’s words with the rest of the New Testament. Besides does not St. Paul himself say “Every man shall be rendered according to his work”? Rom 2:6.
While I can deeply empathize with someone of strong faith (although mine wavers at the worst of times), what is this hang up? This obsession with faith. It is one among many virtues that leads us to salvation. The Christian experience is so much more than trying to figure out a theological equation that equals salvation.
Regarding faith=works. I am going to speak from personal experience and say that I have never observed that in my own life. For example, the other day I wanted to clean the gutters of a family member. The only thing that prompted me to do this was love of this individual, nothing else, full stop. This love is clearly a manifestation of God’s grace residing in me (what little this vessel contains!), but it had nothing to do with faith in Christ Jesus as my salvation. So for me love=charitable works.
I had been mulling this over for weeks and the answer came through a personal experience, and I had not grasped it’s implication until well after the fact.
What the heck is work born of faith anyway? Really?!
If I have FAITH that Christ Jesus has allowed the Gates of Heaven to be opened to a wretch such as I, why would this prompt me to go do charitable works? The concept is actually quite laughable; and I’ll refrain lest I stumble by Satan into mockery.
St. Paul clearly distinguishes faith, hope, and love in Ch. 13 of 1st Cor. No Christian can deny that he puts love of God and fellow man as chief among the Christian virtues.
W
WT1
Guest
I personally do not see a great separation between grace and good works but I know that will need some explaining.
I do think you can do good works without having grace but it seems impossible to have grace and not do good works. Even the criminal on the cross next to Christ performed a good work, when he first defended Christ, before Christ extended grace to him. However in the case of St Paul he was chosen and given grace before he could actually perform a good work but was compelled to devote his life to good works afterwards.
If we have the grace of God we will be compelled to perform good works based on our individual talents and what God’s plan is for us. I also believe that a person that does good works will feel the call of God and if answered will receive grace.
The tragedy is that through history this argument has been a hotly debated issue and cause schisms in the church. Such a small point to have such a devastating effect how anyone would put this issue above the church itself is beyond me. I would much rather just say everyone is right and let’s all receive the grace of God and do good works together.
I do think you can do good works without having grace but it seems impossible to have grace and not do good works. Even the criminal on the cross next to Christ performed a good work, when he first defended Christ, before Christ extended grace to him. However in the case of St Paul he was chosen and given grace before he could actually perform a good work but was compelled to devote his life to good works afterwards.
If we have the grace of God we will be compelled to perform good works based on our individual talents and what God’s plan is for us. I also believe that a person that does good works will feel the call of God and if answered will receive grace.
The tragedy is that through history this argument has been a hotly debated issue and cause schisms in the church. Such a small point to have such a devastating effect how anyone would put this issue above the church itself is beyond me. I would much rather just say everyone is right and let’s all receive the grace of God and do good works together.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Regarding Faith and Works in St. Paul
Pope Benedict XVI
(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)
and one from a few years earlier: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
Pope Benedict XVI
(Two audiences from the Year of St. Paul)
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (begins a bit down)
and one from a few years earlier: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
P
Philthy
Guest
And you went beyond that to say that, through the annual requirement to Confession, you thought the Church might be teaching that mortal sin is rare. I rebutted and simply said that if it implied anything, it implied that the Church regards mortal sins to occur at least once per year per person.
I remain confused
Are you simply saying that you don’t know (ie it might be true) but that you think it isn’t true?
It’s one thing to have a different opinion than someone else, but it’s quite another to have a different opinion than yourself!
Blessings!
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
Are you being deliberately thick?I remain confused
You say that the precepts imply a doctrine that we are likely to fall into mortal sin annually.
You might be correct. I don’t claim to speak for the Church, so I cannot say for sure that you are wrong.
But I don’t think you are correct. This is your own interpretation. I don’t believe the Church teaches doctrine through the precepts (which are rules, and are subject to change, as they have changed many times throughout history - there were once as many as twelve precepts). The Church does not typically (ever?) teach doctrine (which cannot change) through rules (which can, and do, change). That would be like teaching doctrine through Canon Law. It doesn’t happen. Ever.
I believe the purpose of the precepts is to keep the Faithful connected to the Sacramental life of the Church, and not to teach or imply doctrine. So, you might be right, but I think you’re wrong.
P
Philthy
Guest
In the post you are referring to I expressed no such opinion. I simply stated that the CCC has definitively taught that mortal sins of omission exist - that’s all. You, however, apparently wish to return to the discussion of whether an act in itself is mortally sinful - which is irrelevant. Here, again, is the Church teaching on mortal sins of omission along with my comments that I find difficult to improve upon:
Philthy said:
Please note in the above my very reasonable expression “with somewhat regularity”. And here it is expressed with a little more clarity for you and all of us as it is directed to every “disciple of Christ”
CCC1816:
I’m not quite sure why we are still discussing this at this point except to benefit those who are following might be confused by our disagreements.
Acts of charity, service of and witness to the faith are works IMHO and they are “necessary for salvation”. Those who are “incorporated into the Church” (ie the baptized) who do not “persevere in charity” (ie works)" will not be saved".
I understand that we had some need for clarification in this discussion along the way and that at times I missed the mark. That being said, I still don’t quite understand your apparent reluctance to clearly articulate an answer to the OP in a similar manner to some of the ways I’ve expressed a complete answer to the OP…
P
Philthy
Guest
I can be dense at times - my apologies.
This is perfectly clear - thanks.
Fair enough. We are past this now. FWIW, I was not trying to “imply a doctrine” - I was attempting to articulate an appropriate answer to the OP which incorporated the reality of sins of omission in Scripture, the precepts and the CCC as they relate to the issue of “or do we need works too?”.
You have said this
],
But that is not quite what it says…
By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.You do realize that this simply addresses the effects of Baptism and doesn’t speak to the question of sin after Baptism, correct? The “nothing remains that would impede their entry into the KOG…nor personal sin” obviously refers to PAST SINS. It does not address future sins or the ongoing Christian life, which is the topic of the OP.
Incorporating more fully the language of the CCC above one might express an answer to the OP this way:
We are saved by the grace of Baptism and should one die immediately afterwards, or prior to committing a mortal sin, they would need nothing else with regards to salvation. Unfortunately however, some will commit mortal sin - either by act or failing to act - and in such cases all that is necessary is to receive Sacramental Confession to restore the grace received at Baptism and they too would be saved.
With respect to works and salvation, one who after receiving - or restoring - baptismal grace who does not persevere in charity; or who fails to profess, confidently bear witness to and spread the faith it is not saved. In this sense works are necessary, but it is never the works themselves that restore grace - Sacramental Confession is the ordinary means for doing so.
I welcome your critique of this latest effort to unify our answer the OP…
P
Philthy
Guest
On a separate note regarding works and salvation, what does the Church teach regarding our “rewards in Heaven” and their relationship to the good works we do during our mortal lives? Anything?
There is an interesting section on this topic in this lutheran/ catholic dialogue, starting at paragraph 64
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life1.pdf
Jon
D
DavidFilmer
Guest
Obviously. I’m certainly not OSAS.
I think we’re really close.
When many people think of works as having a role in salvation, they often associate it with some sort of “quota,” that we must perform some amount of good works in order to preserve our Baptismal Grace. When, in fact, failure to perform just ONE good work which would be reasonably expected, given sufficient knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful. But failure to perform a THOUSAND good works which would be reasonably expected, but with imperfect knowledge or consent, is not (it’s no different than a thousand other venial sins).
I want to discourage this notion that we will somehow loose our Baptismal Grace “gradually” by an ongoing failure to perform good works (which is what a lot of people seem to think). Sin doesn’t work “gradually” (disposition to sin may be gradual, but sin itself is either mortal or venial). If we loose our Baptismal Grace through a sin of omission, it will be just ONE sin of omission that does it (the mortally sinful one). A million venial sins of omission do not add up to one mortal sin of omission. I think your statement started out good, but left itself open to this “quota” interpretation in the second part.
This thread is about salvation. I have no doubt (and the Church clearly teaches) that our experience of heaven will be affected by how we live our life on earth. Nobody in heaven will feel cheated or jealous of anybody else, and nobody will regret that he didn’t live a better life so that he would have 24-hour access to the pizza buffet, but it will be different, and those who live a righteous life will be somehow “better off.” But this is out of scope.
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