Are we saved by our works or by our faith?

[TheBreak]

English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

In the Catholic faith as far as I know, that man is not saved just by faith, s/he should also do so with their work as their faith. However, my question is, if we are not saved by our faith, than why the one who was crossufied with the Lord Jesus Christ get to heaven once he believed in him?

 

[Michael1966]

Hi TheBreak

You’ll find both in scripture. Have a look at Matthew 25:31-46, for example. What I think this tells us is what James emphasises - that faith and action go together. Both are the results of grace. And it is the grace of God, in Christ, that ultimately saves us and prepares us for action.

 

[TheBreak]

Hi TheBreak

You’ll find both in scripture. Have a look at Matthew 25:31-46, for example. What I think this tells us is what James emphasises - that faith and action go together. Both are the results of grace. And it is the grace of God, in Christ, that ultimately saves us and prepares us for action.

Of course faith and action should go together, but what I meant is, that guy who I’m talking about died right after he belived in the Christ, he didn’t do actions because he didn’t have the chance to do so, and yet, God said him that he will be in heaven at that same day. So, if someone believed in the Christ today and died tomorrow, he didn’t even get baptised. will he go to heaven like that one who God told him?

 

[wanabesaint]

neither, what happened to sacrafic?
what happened to Love God, and to have no false gods?

 

[TheBreak]

neither, what happened to sacrafic?
what happened to Love God, and to have no false gods?

Sorry, I didn’t understand your answer. But nothing happened to love God and only worship him. But again, what I meant is, If not only faith in the way we get into heaven, how did that guy who died with the Christ got to heaven right away? and what about the people who believed in the Christ but died the next day, sure that happened to some people, people who belived in the Christ and didn’t get baptized and they died the next day, what will happen to them?

 

[Michael1966]

Of course faith and action should go together, but what I meant is, that guy who I’m talking about died right after he belived in the Christ, he didn’t do actions because he didn’t have the chance to do so, and yet, God said him that he will be in heaven at that same day. So, if someone believed in the Christ today and died tomorrow, he didn’t even get baptised. will he go to heaven like that one who God told him?

Yes, but I would say that we mustn’t confuse the thief on the cross with those alive and well and with the opportunity for action. I don’t think you can look at the thief on the cross and say that nullifies Matthew 25:31-46, for example. The context of the thief on the cross is the saving of a man dying but who has acknowledged our Lord; we must be wary of extrapolating from that context to other contexts, I believe. When Paul was told to be baptised to wash away his sin (Acts 22:16) he didn’t say “I don’t need to” . Rather, he responded to the context of his own situation - where he was able to be baptised and then go onto to a life of amazing action in faith. We are all called to respond in action, in faith, as befits our own situations.

The problem often in these type of debates (faith vs. action) is that the context is removed and so the debate becomes rather abstract. Have a look at the context in scripture and you’ll find faith and action living alongside each other, being complementary and not contradictory.

 

[TheBreak]

Yes, but I would say that we mustn’t confuse the thief on the cross with those alive and well and with the opportunity for action. I don’t think you can look at the thief on the cross and say that nullifies Matthew 25:31-46, for example. The context of the thief on the cross is the saving of a man dying but who has acknowledged our Lord; we must be wary of extrapolating from that context to other contexts, I believe. When Paul was told to be baptised to wash away his sin (Acts 22:16) he didn’t say “I don’t need to” . Rather, he responded to the context of his own situation - where he was able to be baptised and then go onto to a life of amazing action in faith. We are all called to respond in action, in faith, as befits our own situations.

The problem often in these type of debates (faith vs. action) is that the context is removed and so the debate becomes rather abstract. Have a look at the context in scripture and you’ll find faith and action living alongside each other, being complementary and not contradictory.

Thank you very much for the answer, I agree with you that faith only can’t get you to heaven, you can’t say I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and then go get drunk on Friday night. Now you answered my question or questions actually.

can’t get baptized right now, there is no Catholic church that I can go and ask them to do so because sad enough, everybody here know that the last type of churches that would help new believers are the Catholic churches. (because they are afraid that might the authority punish them) and then come the Orthodox, but the most churchers that open its door are the Evangelical churches. So, me getting baptized by Catholic church here is not possible sadly. so if I died for example tomorrow or after, whouldn’t I go to heaven?

Thank you again for the answer.

 

[InJesusItrust]

A priest told me both are needed. I raise you epistle of James.

Now God decides who to save so He can save deathbed converts. To assume that you don’t need works is rather presumptuous.

After many weeks a priest finally came today (I am disabled). Well worth the wait.

 

[wanabesaint]

pick up your cross, and follow Jesus, neither works or faith will save you…

Know and live the Beatitudes fully, but few know or live the beatitudes and what they call us to in How to live.

 

[JRKH]

English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

In the Catholic faith as far as I know, that man is not saved just by faith, s/he should also do so with their work as their faith. However, my question is, if we are not saved by our faith, than why the one who was crucified with the Lord Jesus Christ get to heaven once he believed in him?

It is always dangerous to take a single extra-ordinary situation and try to make it apply in a normative sense. Especially when there is so much evidence that it IS an extra-ordinary situation and that the norm is quite different.

To understand the relationship between faith and works in Catholic understanding take a look at the Epistle of James Chapter 2 - and in particular this:
James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Further - when we read the judgement scene in Mt 25:31-46 - on what basis are the saved separated from the unsaved? And again, in Mt 7 we see this…
"Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - (Matthew 7:21)

In the light of these clear passages stating that action (works) are necessary, what are we to make of the thief on the cross?

1. That this is obviously a “deathbed conversion” and that it was sincere.
2. That if the man WERE able to act on his conversion he would have (intent)
3. That in fact, we CAN see a work on his part after conversion in that he rebuked the other thief. (rebuking a sinner is a work of mercy)

So - putting all of this together, we can see that works are an essential part of the faith journey in any normative sense. We can also see that there can be extraordinary circumstances where works can be severely limited either by physical limitations or impending death.

Contrary to what some protestants believe about the Catholic Church, we do not believe in works instead of faith but rather the importance of works in and with faith - as clearly taught by our Lord and communicated to us in Holy Scripture.
It is not, as you state in your title - faith or works, but rather faith and works.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Thank you very much for the answer, I agree with you that faith only can’t get you to heaven, you can’t say I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and then go get drunk on Friday night. Now you answered my question or questions actually.

can’t get baptized right now, there is no Catholic church that I can go and ask them to do so because sad enough, everybody here know that the last type of churches that would help new believers are the Catholic churches. (because they are afraid that might the authority punish them) and then come the Orthodox, but the most churchers that open its door are the Evangelical churches. So, me getting baptized by Catholic church here is not possible sadly. so if I died for example tomorrow or after, whouldn’t I go to heaven?

Thank you again for the answer.

With regards to Baptism…
In Catholic terms, you - like the thief on the cross, have already received a “baptism of desire”. That is, if you could go and be baptized today, you would do so. You truly desire to be baptized.

That said - with regards to actual opportunities for baptism…any Baptism that is in proper form is acceptable to the Catholic Church.
Proper form means that one is baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).
So - if you were to go to an evangelical church and be baptized and that baptism is in the trinitarian form - it would be a valid baptism in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
Same is true with the Orthodox Church and this might be a better option than the evangelical church. But if you can join the Orthodox Church where you are, you would be able to receive the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist…something you cannot get at an evangelical church.

May God guide and protect you.

Peace
James

 

[aemcpa]

We are saved by the grace of God, which we receive when we receive the Sacraments in faith. So you should do everything in your power to seek baptism as soon as possible. Where do you live that you cannot find a Catholic parish? The Orthodox would probably not baptize you if you tell them that you want to be a Catholic. If I were in your situation, would try to contact a Catholic priest or even a bishop via the Internet and tell him that you want to become a Catholic and do not have access to a Catholic church to receive the sacraments, and see what he advises you to do.

 

[Genesis315]

The thief on the cross did have works. He humbly defended Our Lord and confessed his own guilt.

 

[rfournier103]

All men are saved by God’s Grace ALONE.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Grace through faith working in love.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” Galatians 5:6

God bless

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Jesus, and Jesus alone, decides who gets saved.

Read His words.

Be nice to His mother.

 

[Fidelis]

The following is from the lesson plan of an apologetics class I teach on “Salvation”:

How are we saved? (Salvation 101)
• Why do we even need to be saved? What are we being saved from?
• Answer: SIN—both Original Sin and personal sin (CCC 1849—1850).

Original Sin and mortal (serious) sin breaks our relationship with God. If we die with unrepented mortal sin, we cannot enter heaven.

1. Because of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, we can place our faith in him and be baptized. Baptism takes away Original Sin and (if we are adults) mortal sin.
2. This gives us sanctifying grace, also called justification. This makes it possible to enter heaven—to be saved. Our salvation depends upon the state of our soul at the time of our death.
3. After baptism, Confession takes away mortal sin and restores sanctifying grace.
4. To stay in sanctifying grace requires us to receive graces from God. This is called actual grace. We can receive actual graces by receiving the sacraments, doing good and avoiding evil.

Do Catholics believe we can work our way to heaven?
• Catholics are often accused of following a “works righteousness” system of salvation—that if they do X amount of good deeds that outweigh their bad deeds, they will make it to heaven.
• Unfortunately, many Catholics, uninformed about the Faith, reinforce this view. When they are asked how a person gets to heaven, they might say something like, “by being a good person,” etc.
• Conversely, many Protestants say works don’t matter at all—all you need is faith alone (Rom 3:28).
• But the Bible teaches the opposite. See James 2. So what does the Church make of all this?
• The Church teaches firmly that faith IS necessary for salvation (CCC 161)
• It also teaches, however, that in order to be saved (go to heaven) we must respond to God’s grace and obey Christ’s commandments, not just believe in him (see Matthew 7:21).
• There are several passages in the Bible that warn us that we must do good and avoid evil if we are to be saved:

• Matthew 25:31-46 Romans 2:6-8
• Matthew 5:17-20 2 Corinthians 5:10
• Matthew 7:15-20 Revelation 22:12
**
Are Catholics “Born Again?”—The Necessity of Baptism: John 3**
• Many Protestants will emphasize the importance of having a “born again” experience—a specific time in their lives when they placed their trust in Christ, accepting him as their personal Lord and Savior (Galatians 2:20). This faith alone, they say, is what saves them—not baptism or works.

1. The idea of being “born again” is based primarily on John 3:3
2. The Greek word we find here (anothen) that is sometimes translated “again” can be translated as “again,” but usually in New Testament Greek means “from above.”
3. To be “born again” or “from above” refers to regeneration.
4. Regeneration is the new life we possess when God cleanses us from our sins and gives us a new nature, so that we can live with him in heaven (again, sanctifying grace)
5. Catholics believe this happens in baptism and this is what Jesus was speaking about when he was speaking to Nicodemus the Pharisee about being born again. “Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)
6. Notice the context of where the discussion about being born again is placed in John’s gospel: between the baptism of Jesus when John was baptizing (John 1:19-34), and when Jesus and his disciples were baptizing (John 3:22).
7. The early Church Fathers also attest to how we are born again in baptism. (See this tract)

Finally, see Romans 6:3-4. We can see from this that baptism is a something that really does change us, bringing us from death to life. Since all Catholics are baptized, all Catholics are born again.

As far as the special case of the Good Thief, here is a “Quick Question” (and answer) from Catholic Answers:

Question:
Is the story of the good thief in Luke 23:39–43 proof that baptism isn’t necessary?

Answer
First, it isn’t clear that baptism had yet been mandated by Jesus before he met the thief. If it had been, we do not know for certain that the thief hadn’t already been baptized. In any case, the thief clearly underwent a conversion at some point during his crucifixion, and it seems evident that he would have desired baptism before his death had he known of its necessity. That would have been sufficient, because the Church recognizes that, in such a case, the desire for baptism brings about the fruits of baptism (CCC 1258).

 

[pablope]

English is not my first language, so I apologize for any misspellings.

In the Catholic faith as far as I know, that man is not saved just by faith, s/he should also do so with their work as their faith. However, my question is, if we are not saved by our faith,

than why the one who was crossufied with the Lord Jesus Christ get to heaven once he believed in him?

On the good thief…There are some who suffer like the good thief, and others like the bad thief. They both suffered equally. But one knew how to make his sufferings meritorious, he accepted them in the spirit of reparation, and turning towards Jesus crucified, he received from His mouth these beautiful words: "This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. " The other, on the contrary, cried out, uttered imprecations and blasphemies, and expired in the most frightful despair.

There are two ways of suffering –
to suffer with love, and to suffer without love.

brizek.com/saints/sermons/sjv-onsuffering.htm

 

[pablope]

Of course faith and action should go together, but what I meant is, that guy who I’m talking about died right after he belived in the Christ, he didn’t do actions because he didn’t have the chance to do so, and yet, God said him that he will be in heaven at that same day. So, if someone believed in the Christ today and died tomorrow, he didn’t even get baptised. will he go to heaven like that one who God told him?

Actually…we do not know if he went to heaven that same day.

Paradise, in that time’s context and in the belief of the Jews…Paradise was also another name for Abraham’s Bosom…

In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23).

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

 

[mayxanh]

Yes, we are saved by Faith, not by Work because God’s salvation is Grace / Free Gift from God. You are saved because of God’s mercy, not because of your good deeds that make you deserve to be saved.

However, Faith need to be shown, to be expressed. We express our faith in God by doing good works.

Thus, Work can be regarded as the fruits of Faith. We cannot affirm that we have faith in God and do nothing at the same time.