Are we "saved"?

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rkberlin

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Hi,
I’m still new to this forum, catholic all my life, just practising again like a good catholic should for the past 3 years. I have a coworker who’s “nondenominational”, and very- in my eyes- self righteous. He keeps on telling me how I’m going to hell because I’m not “saved”. What’s with this “saved” business? How can I counter him without sounding rude? I want to be able to defend my faith, but he doesn’t listen to anything I say. I usually walk away from him, so I don’t lose my temper. Any suggestions?
 
Most of these people believe that if you “accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior”, that’s it. You’re saved and nothing can take that salvation from you. You can’t even throw it away. Of course that is very unscriptural but if the person won’t listen, there’s really no point in trying to argue with him. My usual response (not too nice but not too mean, either) is to point out that Jesus said that the Father had appointed him the judge of all men; therefore only He knows if I will be saved. In the case of a person telling me I’m going to hell, I say that he is calling himself Jesus and is being blasphemous. That usually holds 'em for a little while.

If you will go to the Apologetics forum, there are several lengthy threads on OSAS with all kinds of good information for you if you do want to engage this person in a debate.

Good luck.
 
What I told the person who asked if I was saved :
**
*Yes - we are all saved because JESUS died for all of us and thus saved us from eternal damnation weather we accept it or not. *
  • GOD gave us free will, so we chose the way we want to go.*
    (This is out of a homily from our priest)
    **
    That is where I end the conversation.
    **
    If the person tries to insult me, I usually say:
    **
    I forgive you and I pray for you.
    Then I walk away.
    **
    **
    Hope it helps,
    *Ann:blessyou: *
    **
    **
    **
 
With these non-denom protestants…they are one shot wonders…trust me, I used to be one…they believe in a magic bullet…once you say the sinners prayer…you are saved…SORRY, but it doesn’t work that way…point out the scriptures that faith without works is dead, etc…also point out that we are not guaranteed salvation…only at the point of our death will we know if we are saved or not…I always like to say I am a work in progress…I am hoping to be saved when my number is up 🙂
 
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dumspirospero:
With these non-denom protestants…they are one shot wonders…trust me, I used to be one…they believe in a magic bullet…once you say the sinners prayer…you are saved…SORRY, but it doesn’t work that way…point out the scriptures that faith without works is dead, etc…also point out that we are not guaranteed salvation…only at the point of our death will we know if we are saved or not…I always like to say I am a work in progress…I am hoping to be saved when my number is up 🙂
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I’m wondering, why would God create man, reveal Himself and His plan of salvation to man, and not want man to be assured of his salvation? (Jn 20:31; 1 Jn 5:13ff)
 
“Are you Saved?” Is a common opener for someone who is looking to convert you. If they won’t listen to what you are saying, they are probably not looking to be helpful to you or to be a friend. But, if you want to continue the discussion, you might try some of the web resources here at Catholic Answers. Below is the link to one of their tracts. I am also giving you a link to a back issue of Envoy magazine which is more conversational.

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp
envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.3/nutsandbolts.html

If you want to discuss the faith with people, it helps to have a close relationship with Jesus. Pray, go to daily mass, read the bible often, study the CCC. Otherwise you can lose focus (off of Jesus) and become upset. Sharing the faith is a joyful process, not an upsetting one. I’m not saying you are upset! I just mean, oh, I don’t know, just that the Holy Spirit will help you, and you don’t have to worry!
 
Because we have free will…we choose whether or not to accept God…plain and simple…he has endowed us with the knowledge on how to be saved…it is our choice whether or not to do it. It makes it so, so simple if we are assured…there is no reason to try with that frame of mind. It isn’t as simple as some people make it out to be…
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laadan:
I’m wondering, why would God create man, reveal Himself and His plan of salvation to man, and not want man to be assured of his salvation? (Jn 20:31; 1 Jn 5:13ff)
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Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and advice. I usually try and stay as calm as possible and say that we obviously both believe in Jesus as being our saviour, but it’s still hard for me to have someone tell me I’m so wrong and I’m practising the wrong faith. I love being in Mass ( the highlight of my week ) and everything that goes with our religion. I do believe that the Holy Spirit guides me if I just listen ( which gets hard when you let anger and getting upset interfere ) and that I will come up with the right answers. Thanks again

Gudie
 
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laadan:
I’m wondering, why would God create man, reveal Himself and His plan of salvation to man, and not want man to be assured of his salvation? (Jn 20:31; 1 Jn 5:13ff)
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He wants us to confident hope and trust in Him - but I would remind the questioner that the Holy Scriptures speak of our salvation in past, present and future tenses…so according to the Bible, I am saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), am being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

I would then remind the questioner that while the Bible tells us that salvation is the free gift of God, the Bible also tells us that salvation involves more than the profession of faith alone (but that free gift of faith is indeed a part of it!). I would also remind them that the Bible tells us that salvation can indeed be lost.

I’ll be glad to provide you with passages for all of these things if you like. You can also check out Assurance of Salvation? here at the CA website if you to learn a little more about the Catholic Christian perspective.

-Peace in Christ-

DustinsDad
 
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dumspirospero:
Because we have free will…we choose whether or not to accept God…plain and simple…he has endowed us with the knowledge on how to be saved…it is our choice whether or not to do it. It makes it so, so simple if we are assured…there is no reason to try with that frame of mind. It isn’t as simple as some people make it out to be…
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Where is it we are told of this gift of free will?
 
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DustinsDad:
I would then remind the questioner that while the Bible tells us that salvation is the free gift of God, the Bible also tells us that salvation involves more than the profession of faith alone (but that free gift of faith is indeed a part of it!). I would also remind them that the Bible tells us that salvation can indeed be lost.

-Peace in Christ-

DustinsDad
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You miss the point. You believe that God has the power to create man, reveal Himself and his redemptive plan, but does not have the power to assure man that he is saved?
 
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laadan:
You miss the point. You believe that God has the power to create man, reveal Himself and his redemptive plan, but does not have the power to assure man that he is saved?
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He could if He wanted to. If He wanted to He could just send us all to Heaven right now regardless. He does things for a reason. He made salvation a lifelong process so that we could choose whether or not to love Him and walk along side Him our whole lives. He does not assure us our salvation because we always have the choice to not walk with Him anymore. We cannot predict the future so we do not know if we will reject Him later in life.
 
you were saved the moment that you were (if you were) baptized in the name of the father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost and water was poured, over your head, or dunked or drizzeled over you…

now all you have to do is prove to Chirst you are worth saving by trying your best to live a “Chirst-Like Life”. Love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself…, easy right? Now get to work.
 
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laadan:
You miss the point. You believe that God has the power to create man, reveal Himself and his redemptive plan, but does not have the power to assure man that he is saved?
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Sure he does! That’s silly. We’re talking about what God* chose* to do, rather than the entire range of things God could have done.

Peace in Christ

DustinsDad
 
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laadan:
Where is it we are told of this gift of free will?
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Start at Genisis 1:1 and read until Revalation 21:22. It’s on just about every page 😃

Seriously, everytime God asks us to follow him and to do his will, it demonstrates that we have free will - to chose for or against him, to cooperate with his grace or reject it.

Choose wisely:

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you,** provided you continue** in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)
**
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
(2 Peter 2:20-22)
Peace in Christ

DustinsDad
**
 
If there was no free will, why would God reveal Himself at all? What’s the point? If you are forced to love someone, is it really love?
 
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Genesis315:
If there was no free will, why would God reveal Himself at all? What’s the point? If you are forced to love someone, is it really love?
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What does free will have to do with God’s revelation? Nothing.

God revealed Himself because you cannot know Him, nor even another human being, without a self revelation.

As far as your statement “If you are forced to love someone, is it really love?” That is an old and tired argument.

Logically, the creature cannot have an ultimately free will; it is subject to the will of the creator.

The point I am trying to make you see is that God did create man, and He did reveal Himself and his plan of redemption to man, so that those who will be saved *will *know that they are saved. He did not go through all of His revelation to keep the one’s He is saving in the dark. What good is that? What kind of a God is He that deliberately keeps those He is saving in the dark?
 
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DustinsDad:
Start at Genisis 1:1 and read until Revalation 21:22. It’s on just about every page 😃

Seriously, everytime God asks us to follow him and to do his will, it demonstrates that we have free will - to chose for or against him, to cooperate with his grace or reject it.

Peace in Christ

DustinsDad
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Genesis 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Tell me my friend, where is man’s free will in this verse? I see God’s will in this verse.

Rev 21:27: “and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Tell me, DustinsDad, where is your free will in that verse? Only those whose names “are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Are you able to write your name in the Lamb’s book of life? I don’t think so. Again, God’s will is shown here.

My friend, I am not trying to demean you here, but your verse citations prove my point, not yours. I read the link you provided me the other day on assurance of salvation. The writer of that article is very inconsistent. He misrepresents, for lack of a better term, “protestant” beliefs. I do not subscribe to K. Hagin and “word faith.” To lump all of “protestant” theology under that is dishonest.

Remember: “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works; so that no one may boast.”

You are not saved by your will, but by God’s (Jn 1:12-13)
 
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laadan:
Rev 21:27: “and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Tell me, DustinsDad, where is your free will in that verse? Only those whose names “are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
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Tell me friend, are you prepared to answer to every passage that tells us to WORK for our salvation, or are you just going to take everything you can out of context and keep throwing it at us and ignore all the counterpoints to your arguments?

Where is our free will in that statement - “no one who practices abomination and lying” - or are you saying that if I practice abomination and lying, I am doing so because it is God’s will that I do so?

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
 
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geezerbob:
Most of these people believe that if you “accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior”, that’s it. You’re saved and nothing can take that salvation from you. You can’t even throw it away. Of course that is very unscriptural but if the person won’t listen, there’s really no point in trying to argue with him. My usual response (not too nice but not too mean, either) is to point out that Jesus said that the Father had appointed him the judge of all men; therefore only He knows if I will be saved. In the case of a person telling me I’m going to hell, I say that he is calling himself Jesus and is being blasphemous. That usually holds 'em for a little while.

If you will go to the Apologetics forum, there are several lengthy threads on OSAS with all kinds of good information for you if you do want to engage this person in a debate.

Good luck.
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Isn’t that what Paul and Barnabas told the jailor that they had to do to be saved? Granted, the act of salvation can probably be “undone” if one does not live the acceptance of Jesus as their lord and saviour but how does simply going to church provide salvation? We are not saved by our good works.
 
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