Are we "saved"?

[jeffreedy789]

james 2:24 - so you see it is what you do that justifies you, and not faith alone.

 

[jeffreedy789]

it’s important to realize that salvation is a process. most protestants see salvation as being punctiliar - that is, it happens once in time, and is done from that point forward. however, the Bible does NOT teach this. you find verses like ‘work our your salvation with fear and trembling’ and ‘he who endures to the end will be saved’.

if your coworker is ‘concerned’ about your salvation, just pray the sinner’s prayer with him. there’s nothing objectionable in it - it’s just confessing your sins and asking Christ to save you. according to the protestant’s (faulty) theology, you’re now ‘saved’ and nothing can take that away. he should be satisfied, and stop trying to save you.

then you can talk about what it MEANS…

 

[Genesis315]

laadan:

What does free will have to do with God’s revelation? Nothing.

God revealed Himself because you cannot know Him, nor even another human being, without a self revelation.

As far as your statement “If you are forced to love someone, is it really love?” That is an old and tired argument.

Logically, the creature cannot have an ultimately free will; it is subject to the will of the creator.

The point I am trying to make you see is that God did create man, and He did reveal Himself and his plan of redemption to man, so that those who will be saved *will *know that they are saved. He did not go through all of His revelation to keep the one’s He is saving in the dark. What good is that? What kind of a God is He that deliberately keeps those He is saving in the dark?

If there is no free will, why would need to know about Him? Who cares? Why didn’t God just create a bunch of beings in heaven that just worship Him like robots? Why does He create beings and damn them to Hell for no fault of their own? Just for kicks and giggles?

 

[Peter_Atlanta]

Question: “Are you saved?”

Answer: “I’m more than saved - I’m Catholic. Now run along oh ye of the deficient faiths!”

 

[JDC]

What I told the person who asked if I was saved :

*Yes - we are all saved because JESUS died for all of us and thus saved us from eternal damnation weather we accept it or not. *

• GOD gave us free will, so we chose the way we want to go.*
  (This is out of a homily from our priest)

That is where I end the conversation.

If the person tries to insult me, I usually say:

I forgive you and I pray for you.
Then I walk away.

Hope it helps,
*Ann *

Luke 13:5 says"but expect ye repent ye shall all likewise perish"
you are just making up your own spiritual ideas, like worshiping a trashcan - it wont save you - only Jesus can -but u must accept him

 

[JDC]

Genesis315:

He could if He wanted to. If He wanted to He could just send us all to Heaven right now regardless. He does things for a reason. He made salvation a lifelong process so that we could choose whether or not to love Him and walk along side Him our whole lives. He does not assure us our salvation because we always have the choice to not walk with Him anymore. We cannot predict the future so we do not know if we will reject Him later in life.

Have you ever read the Bible- or do you believe some catchismistic person who believes man can make up stuff equal to if God was saying it. Walking with God cannot save us because that is something we do.
Ephisians 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faithand that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man boast.

 

[JDC]

Peter_Atlanta:

Question: “Are you saved?”

Answer: “I’m more than saved - I’m Catholic. Now run along oh ye of the deficient faiths!”

When does being catholic save u???
Lots of people are catholic, I know semi-satan worshipors that go to mass all the time, have been confermed, and bapitized.

 

[Peter_Atlanta]

JDC:

When does being catholic save u???
Lots of people are catholic, I know semi-satan worshipors that go to mass all the time, have been confermed, and bapitized.

It’s to shut them up. I cannot abide the sort of person that asks ‘Are you saved?’ 30 seconds later they’re speaking in tongues about the Rapture or some other such nonsense. I honestly believe such individuals have a mental disorder.

 

[Genesis315]

JDC:

When does being catholic save u???
Lots of people are catholic, I know semi-satan worshipors that go to mass all the time, have been confermed, and bapitized.

Not all Catholics are saved, just like not all Christians are saved. It’s that “Lord, Lord” verse (see below).

 

[Genesis315]

JDC:

Have you ever read the Bible- or do you believe some catchismistic person who believes man can make up stuff equal to if God was saying it. Walking with God cannot save us because that is something we do.
Ephisians 2:8 says "For by grace are ye saved through faithand that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man boast.

Have you ever read it?

“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’” (Matt. 7:21).

“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).

“For he will render every man according to his works . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” (Jas. 2:14).

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).

"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24).

 

[DustinsDad]

laadan:

What does free will have to do with God’s revelation? Nothing.

Certainly it does, because God not only tells us about Himself, He tells us about us. You can’t truely know yourself until you know God.

But my point is that all of God’s revelation describes man’s free will.

Do you believe God willed the evil done by Adam and Eve?

God revealed Himself because you cannot know Him, nor even another human being, without a self revelation.

Then you should have no problem refuting it. I await.

Logically, the creature cannot have an ultimately free will; it is subject to the will of the creator.

Wrong. The creator, being all powerful and all loving and all good, can give to the creature free will. In the case of man and angel, he did just that. It is illogical to suggest that an all powerful and all loving and all good creator would be unable to give man the gift of free will, when the entire experience of mankind from his creation in the garden has been the stuggle with that free will - to choose for or against God, as demonstrated both in history and in Divine Revelation.

It is also illogical to suggest the all powerful and all loving and all good God created man without free will because that claim says God wills evil upon his creatures without giving them the free will to reject it and choose Him. This demonstrates a grave and serious misunderstanding of the nature of God as revealed throughout time and by His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ. It is no wonder such an erroneous belief demands absolute assurance of salvation - it stamps out the virtue of hope by declaring it unnecessary.

The point I am trying to make you see is that God did create man, and He did reveal Himself and his plan of redemption to man, so that those who will be saved will know that they are saved.

You keep saying that without providiing any evidence of it. You also keep focusing on the past tense aspect of Salvation - remember, Scripture speaks of Salvation in all three tenses. If you’re going to be sola scripture, at least take all of Scripture…otherwise you’re just doing sola-parta-Scripture.

In addition, all the* warnings* about losing your salvation if you fall must then be meant for those who have* no choice but to fall*. That, my friend, is the height of illogic. See below for just one of a multitude of examples:

Rom.11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

He did not go through all of His revelation to keep the one’s He is saving in the dark. What good is that? What kind of a God is He that deliberately keeps those He is saving in the dark?

I’m sorry you feel that way my friend.

Faith, Hope, and Love. Pray for these divine virtues, they’ll light up every square inch of that darkness you speak of.

Peace in Christ

-Dustinsdad-

 

[DustinsDad]

Peter_Atlanta:

Question: “Are you saved?”

Answer: “I’m more than saved - I’m Catholic. Now run along oh ye of the deficient faiths!”

 

[Todd_Easton]

rkberlin:

Hi,
I’m still new to this forum, catholic all my life, just practising again like a good catholic should for the past 3 years. I have a coworker who’s “nondenominational”, and very- in my eyes- self righteous. He keeps on telling me how I’m going to hell because I’m not “saved”. What’s with this “saved” business? How can I counter him without sounding rude? I want to be able to defend my faith, but he doesn’t listen to anything I say. I usually walk away from him, so I don’t lose my temper. Any suggestions?

The Catholic Answers booklet, Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth, suggests the following:
If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”

 

[rkberlin]

Todd Easton:

The Catholic Answers booklet, Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth, suggests the following:If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”

wow, thanks, I love that, I have to write that down and memorise it! :tiphat:

Knowledge is power and the nondenoms usually get me by quoting scripture ( my weakness ). thanks again to all

 

[DustinsDad]

laadan:

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Tell me my friend, where is man’s free will in this verse? I see God’s will in this verse.

Me too. Regarding free will, remember I said to read everything in between. Let’s go a bit further…

(Gen 1:26-27) Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Then a little bit further…

(Gen 2:16-17) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

Then a little bit further…

(Gen3:1-6) Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden; but God said, You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.

Can you identify the free will in each of these passages? Do you need help?

Rev 21:27: “and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Tell me, DustinsDad, where is your free will in that verse? Only those whose names “are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

The Lord already knows what my choice is - what with the help of His grace I’ll do with my free will. But here’s the kicker - He knows, I don’t. Book isn’t opened yet.

(continued below)

 

[DustinsDad]

(continued from above)

Are you able to write your name in the Lamb’s book of life? I don’t think so. Again, God’s will is shown here.

It’s not my job to write my name in the Book of Life, that perogative belongs to my Creator thank you very much.

And if he grants me the free gift of grace of persevering until the end (which I joyfully ask for everyday), I have complete confidence in my Lord that my name will not be blotted out of said Book of Life:

(Rev 3:3-5) Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

See above that most people in Sardi *did *receive the Lord’s grace but had since rejected it - they are being called to repent and turn back to the Lord (free will going on their brother). Only a few in Sardi were left who still had clean garments (indicating that the others garments were clean at one time but became soile again).

My friend, I am not trying to demean you here, but your verse citations prove my point, not yours. I read the link you provided me the other day on assurance of salvation. The writer of that article is very inconsistent.

Then you should have no problem refuting his claims. I await.

He misrepresents, for lack of a better term, “protestant” beliefs. I do not subscribe to K. Hagin and “word faith.” To lump all of “protestant” theology under that is dishonest.

Well then just refute the parts that you feel need refuting. If you think his condemnations of Protestant beliefs you happen to disagree with are correct condemnations - it’s okay to say so. I won’t tell your friends you agreed with a Catholic.

Remember: “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not as a result of works; so that no one may boast.”

Amen to that! But look out brother, you are agreeing with the Catholics again…

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Council of Trent: Canons on Justification

You are not saved by your will, but by God’s (Jn 1:12-13)

Of course not, if God did not will to save us, our free will to receive and believe in him wouldn’t matter - it is just very clear that He did and He does!

(John 1:12-13) But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

And since the above passage makes it abundantly clear that He does will to save us, it is of eternal consequence that you receive Him and believe in Him, (and that we continue to believe in Him). Is that receiving and believing a “work” to your Protestant ears? Not to worry my friend, he provides you the grace to DO it and to keep DOING it.

Yes, that reception and belief is, like the gift of Salvation, also a free gift - and like all gifts they can be rejected (and please don’t make me drag out 500+ verses of Scripture to demonstrate this, I think you know exactly what I’m talking about!).

And I might also add that your belief in Him can’t be partial. You have to have complete belief - which includes believing in ALL that He has revealed. Matthew 16:18 anyone?

Peace

DustinsDad

 

[DustinsDad]

---

JDC to Ann-Elisabeth:

• you are just making up your own spiritual ideas, like worshiping a trashcan - it wont save you - only Jesus can -but u must accept him.
  JDC to Genesis315: Walking with God cannot save us because that is something we do.
  **

Yo, JDC: “Accepting the Lord” and “walking with the Lord” are both things we do. You erroneously think one is a “work” and one is not. In reality, neither are “works” such as you intend the meaning, because both are made possible only by the free gift of God’s grace.

And what is walking with the Lord but doing His will? Hearing his words and doing what is commanded? Such are free gifts from God and God alone.

You can neglect walking with the Lord and doing His will all you want by calling them “works”, but in doing so you reject the words of the Lord Himself, you demonstrate that your belief is only partial, and that your trust in Him is limited! I say WOH to you brother!

Matt 7:13-14 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

“Entering” is something we do my friend - is that too an empty man-made work we are warned against elsewhere in Scripture? If you think it is, then I suggest to you that your theology is mixed up about works and faith.

And this theology is based on the teachings of a man gravely afflicted with the sin of scrupulosity - he never “felt” forgiven, thus doubting the power and greatness of God’s love. It’s no wonder Calvinism grew out of such doubt.

Matt 7:24-27 "Every one then who hears these words of mine ***and does them ***will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

And every one who hears these words of mine ***and does not do them ***will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it."

Yes, what you “do” or “do not” is eternally important. And of course this “doing” or “doing not” is based on what you “accept” or “accept not” - God’s grace!

Pray for the grace to make the wise choice my friend - please.

-DustinsDad-

 

[DustinsDad]

Sorry, my post above to Laadan had a messed up part…should read as follows:

---

God revealed Himself because you cannot know Him, nor even another human being, without a self revelation

I will agree with that if you call it Divine Revelation Though certain things about God can be known from natural reason (such as that He exists). But of course certain things can only be known through Divine revelation (such as that He is Trinity).​

Thanks,

DustinsDad

 

[Church_Militant]

JDC:

When does being catholic save u???
Lots of people are catholic, I know semi-satan worshipors that go to mass all the time, have been confermed, and bapitized.

Trash! You really are a darling and charitable person… The fact is that you don’t have a clue what you’re talkin’ about when it comes to real catholic teaching and you are not here to discuss, but to attack the Catholic Church.