Are we slaves inside these bodies?

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  1. Step back and calm down. This is starting to sound Gnostic. The material world is NOT evil, I repeat, NOT evil.
  2. I’m going to explain advanced technology via computer programming. I know computers are advanced themselves, but bear with me. (I’m learning the hardware side of things this school year)
Suppose we need to sort a bunch of numbers. How do we do this?
*Well first, we need to sort one number. Okay, the first number is the list is sorted by default, because you cannot have an unsorted list of size 1
*Now we have another number. Let’s sort it into place into out list at the beginning. Two items sorted.
*Sort another number into place. 3 sorted.
*And so on, and so on.

How can we implement this? Well for each number beyond the first, swap it backwards through the list until the next number is smaller than it.

Similarly, advanced technology can be seen as breaking things into smaller steps and building upon what’s already been created. (That latter part would be like Java being coded in C being coded in Assembly being coded in machine code)
 
Razanir said:
  1. Step back and calm down. This is starting to sound Gnostic. The material world is NOT evil, I repeat, NOT evil.
  2. I’m going to explain advanced technology via computer programming. I know computers are advanced themselves, but bear with me. (I’m learning the hardware side of things this school year)
Suppose we need to sort a bunch of numbers. How do we do this?
*Well first, we need to sort one number. Okay, the first number is the list is sorted by default, because you cannot have an unsorted list of size 1
*Now we have another number. Let’s sort it into place into out list at the beginning. Two items sorted.
*Sort another number into place. 3 sorted.
*And so on, and so on.

How can we implement this? Well for each number beyond the first, swap it backwards through the list until the next number is smaller than it.

Similarly, advanced technology can be seen as breaking things into smaller steps and building upon what’s already been created. (That latter part would be like Java being coded in C being coded in Assembly being coded in machine code)
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Have you read The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis?

The material world is not, in itself, evil, but evil is introduced by the artificial manipulation of the material world by wills that are not in harmony with the material world nor with the will of God,

The will to power expressed in technology is overcoming nature, but it is also overcoming the nature of humanity. If the very nature of what it means to be human is being overcome, what precisely is the nature of what it means to be human being replaced with? Inhuman nature?

Euthanasia, abortion and same sex behaviours are all signs of humanity abdicating it own nature. Very much like the action of cancerous cells in a body acting against the good of the body.
 
meltzerboy said:
Robert, having read your interesting posts over time, it seems to me your religious beliefs are very much influenced by Hasidic Judaism and consist of one part Hasidism, a second part Catholicism, and a third part your own invention. I’m not being critical of this; you can believe whatever you wish, but is it correct you are not fully in accord with the teachings of Catholicism or Christianity in general?
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Blessing or curse, but I allow myself to ‘cut and paste’ when it comes to my imagination on topics that just don’t make sense to me. After all, isn’t this what CAF is for? Yes, I have GREAT respect for Hasidic Jews, and I often borrow from the Tanya.

Back to the OP, doesn’t it seem to be far fetched that we, with our puny innate wit could have caused all the technological advances over the past 150 years?

I live in solitude and have had great opportunity to listen to my inner voices. This is where I came up with all this stuff; my inner voices told me what to say. Yes, I believe that my inner voices come from afar, and are not a product of my puny brain. Nothing of what I’m saying is my own invention. I’m a deep believer in divine ‘inspiration!’

We are living in a make believe world; a make believe world where the fantasy is driven by the mass media. It amazes me how people curse at the mass media on the one hand for all its lies, and then turn around and believe that the make believe is reality! Our perceptions of reality is almost entirely painted by the mass media!
 
You keep saying puny innate wit. I don’t agree with that; but even if you were right, enough puny minds operating for enough years can achieve anything.

It’s been 100,000 years.

No aliens required.
 
My body is a slave to gravity. No matter how often I try to escape, it makes no difference.
 
Peter_Plato said:
Perhaps. However, where artificial technology weakens natural immunity and bolsters dependency that would seem a cause for concern, no? Similar to the way monoculture in agriculture opens the possibility for devastation because vulnerability to certain threats has become universal within the “culture” of the plant community. The strategy for bolstering security against the threats is to continue to create new means of artificial protection as the threats evolve. Monoculture requires artificial support or it would quickly collapse left to itself. Modern western culture is a kind of monoculture that relies heavily on artificial means to bolster it against threats. Abortion, euthanasia and even same sex marriage would seem to be artificial means of culling back overgrowth, but are signs that we are in trouble because the entire strategy of materialism and economic growth dooms itself by its own success.
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So is your concern dependency, or overpopulation?
 
Deus_tecum said:
My body is a slave to gravity. No matter how often I try to escape, it makes no difference.
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True.

But that makes sense, as we could not breathe even 7 miles from earth’s surface anyhow.

And without your body, your mind could not move at all, even horizontally.

Of greater concern is our slavery to death.

ICXC NIKA
 
Robert_Sock said:
There will be another ‘adventure’ for our souls after the World to Come! Such a view is espoused by Hasidic Jews who contend that just our souls, not our glorified bodies, will be gathered to Gan Eden for the righteous.

You think we should have gone much further? Like, how much further? Can you predict what the world will look like in the future (like 150 years from now)? Why wouldn’t you at least give God the credit? Is it because the mass media doesn’t?

Well, yes, our bodies enable us to live here in this lower world but so what? What does that have to do with my OP? (BTW: The Hasidic Jews believe that there are four worlds that God created, and we are in the lowest)
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Unfortunately for your hypothesis (but fortunately for everybody!) the Resurrectional Body/ pneumatikon soma of human life will be everlasting! There will be no “post afterlife” as a pure spirit. We will go into Eternity full bodied!

To exist without a body–no sight, no smell, no limbs therefore no
movement, not even any knowledge or memory since those require your head to hold them – would be altogether hideous. Fortunately, Scripture teaches no such thing.

ICXC NIKA!
 
GEddie said:
You keep saying puny innate wit. I don’t agree with that; but even if you were right, enough puny minds operating for enough years can achieve anything.

It’s been 100,000 years.

No aliens required.
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You keep coming up with 100,000 years figure but I’m only interested in the past 150 years of extreme technological and cultural growth.

How many puny minds were responsible for the manufacturing of toothpicks?

Who said anything about aliens? All I said is that based on Hasidic philosophy, there were four worlds created, with our world being the lowest. Again, you’re instances in using the term ‘aliens’ is more of a cheap shot at what my post is really all about.
 
GEddie said:
So is your concern dependency, or overpopulation?
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My concern is disharmony from nature and the will of God that has led us to the brink of desperation.

Like Robert, I do believe humans have had “help” from other sources historically, but unlike Robert, I do believe at least some of the inspiration has come from God. A great deal of human advance, perhaps even the bulk of it, has been from God - the discovery of penicillin is a great example. Unfortunately, that inspiration has been mitigated by our own “puny wills” and, as Paul would say, other “Dominions and Powers,” not all good.

I think we need to be very attentive to signs that implicate some of those influences. When we begin to self-destruct (abortion, euthanasia and same sex behaviour) those indicators should be seen as red flags, not as rights or necessary evils.
 
GEddie said:
Unfortunately for your hypothesis (but fortunately for everybody!) the Resurrectional Body/ pneumatikon soma of human life will be everlasting! There will be no “post afterlife” as a pure spirit. We will go into Eternity full bodied!

To exist without a body–no sight, no smell, no limbs therefore no
movement, not even any knowledge or memory since those require your head to hold them – would be altogether hideous. Fortunately, Scripture teaches no such thing.

ICXC NIKA!
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I’m just reiterating what the Hasidic philosophy teaches. It’s all verifiable if you take the time to read the Tanya. Are you at all familiar with the Tanya? You’re hypothesis that we will enter Eternity full bodied is also unsubstantiated. When we die and go to Heaven it will be just our souls. It’s only in the World to Come that our souls will be reunited with glorified bodies.

God is pure spirit, and so is our souls. Why not ask God how He manages without ‘sight,’ smell and limbs that allow physical movement? The angels and archangels are also pure spirit, but they seem to manage just fine. You’re not making sense to me here.
 
GEddie said:
Unfortunately for your hypothesis (but fortunately for everybody!) the Resurrectional Body/ pneumatikon soma of human life will be everlasting! There will be no “post afterlife” as a pure spirit. We will go into Eternity full bodied!

To exist without a body–no sight, no smell, no limbs therefore no
movement, not even any knowledge or memory since those require your head to hold them – would be altogether hideous. Fortunately, Scripture teaches no such thing.

ICXC NIKA!
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“Just as a blind man is unable to form any idea about colors, or a deaf person to fathom what it means to hear sounds… so the body cannot comprehend the delights of the soul… For we live in a material world, and the only kind of pleasure we can understand is that experienced through our body. But the joys of the spirit are everlasting and ceaseless. There is no resemblance of any kind between the enjoyments of the soul and those of the body.”
–Maimonides
 
Peter_Plato said:
I am not sure about the other aspects of the opening post, but the technology around us is mostly a scaffold or crutch that more and more creates dependency and weakens our natural abilities rather than makes us more capable. Most people living today are less fit, have a lower threshold for pain, have less stamina and are generally less capable of survival (without drugs and technology) than humans were in the past. Longevity does not argue that we are healthier or more fit as individuals, only that we are better protected from the vagaries that would have done us in in past times.
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but as a species it is technology that has allowed us spread all over the world.

But it is hard to generalize when you localize your experience. I would say this applies a lot more to folks who live in cities. I live in the country where people are more self-sufficient, know how to grow their own food, and raise livestock.

if our present society collapsed I’d say we in the country would survive with less problems than those in the city. Technology does allow more people to survive.
 
vsedriver said:
What evidence do you have that your ‘inner voices’ come from afar? You could simply be self-delusional.

Divine inspiration involves doing moral good. Divine inspiration doesn’t tell you how to prevent polio. Divine inspiration tells you that doing something to prevent polio is good.
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“But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.” -John 14:26 (Douay Rheims)

John 14:26 is all the proof I need.

The least you could do is to give God credit for our technological advances, such as how to prevent polio!
 
GEddie said:
Not me. Definitely.

YMMV
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My brother recently died of pancreatic cancer and life suddenly became hell-like for him. The same can happen to you or me on short notice. I’ll bet that your attitude would change if you experienced inescapable, extreme pain and suffering, day in and day out. I pray that it never happens to any of us, of course.

Look at all the starving children who live in inescapable pain and suffering. Again, I think your attitude would change if you were stuck in such a body. It must be hell-like.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I’m just reiterating what the Hasidic philosophy teaches. It’s all verifiable if you take the time to read the Tanya. Are you at all familiar with the Tanya? You’re hypothesis that we will enter Eternity full bodied is also unsubstantiated. When we die and go to Heaven it will be just our souls. It’s only in the World to Come that our souls will be reunited with glorified bodies.

God is pure spirit, and so is our souls. Why not ask God how He manages without ‘sight,’ smell and limbs that allow physical movement? The angels and archangels are also pure spirit, but they seem to manage just fine. You’re not making sense to me here.
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I think the Hasidic viewpoint of our being souls first and united with glorified bodies only at the end of time when we are resurrected is in keeping with most Christian, including Catholic, thought. Personally, I’m not in agreement since I don’t think the Torah and Talmud give us enough information on what form–body, soul alone, or both–the afterlife will take. Hasidism is taking a leap of faith concerning this. OTOH, religion itself requires a leap of faith.

Hasidism is not uniform in believing that the body is evil even though it is prone to harm, injury, suffering, pain, and temptation. In fact, Hasidism teaches that the most mundane and common behavior which depends on bodily processes–such as eating and sex–can be regarded as holy and spiritual acts.
 
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