Are we that out of touch?

[grandfather]

Huzzah!!

It is amazing how so many people can know so much and have such strong opinions about something they know nothing about and have not experienced. Maybe it is nostalgia, longing for something that is no longer present, that explains the attachment to the old Mass. Could be!

On the other hand I know what Catholic life was like back then, not only liturgically, but culturally. Catholic families were stonger and healthier. Vocations were at a very high level. Mass attendance was about 95%. Prayers and piety were practiced in homes, novenas, sacramentals, family rosaries.

What happened? Vocations not only plummeted, but people left their solemn vows. An epidemic of divorce ravaged marriages and families. The sex scandals almost destroyed us. Mass attendence plummeted. People lost faith and became Protestants or nothing. A bishop once joked to me that the largest Christian denomination in the country is Cathoic and the second largest is ex-Catholic. Very funny! I’ve met hundreds of people who told me, “I was raised Catholic, but…”

What we all need to live well is grace. Grace comes from God and it comes to us through worship. Something got broken somewhere. How we worship, the form, is important. The form either inspires us to awe and reverence, and draws us into God’s presence or it does not. Life is always a struggle. Based on how the Catholic population is handling it, the decline of morals and so many damaged families and religious vocations, we seem to have less grace. Maybe, just maybe, that is because worship is broken. I do not think there has ever been a time in history when the Catholic population has suffered so much decline and been damaged so greatly.

Our hope is in Jesus’s promises. He will never abandon us, but Peter’s boat is in a big storm and battered heavily.

 

[palmas85]

He wasn’t a roman citizen so he had no reason to speak that. and isn’t the area where he grew up supposedly very uneducated? so i think the only language he would of learned would of been the local one. you don’t have to be an eyewitness to use logic and reason. also it really doesn’t matter how many or which languages were spoken by the apostles and Jesus. thats the only point i was trying to make.

Where in scripture does it ever say that Jesus was uneducated? I must have missed that one. We do know that he was highly knowledgeable about the Hebrew scriptures which would seem to indicate a fair degree of education. Also, since Judea was a part of the Roman Empire official business there would have been done in Latin and most business transactions probably would have been done in Greek… You had many people living in that area who were not Jews or Romans and so Greek, which was kind of a lingua franca in Judea and across the whole empire as a matter of fact, was widely spoken. Then there is the episode when Jesus has his conversation with Pilate. I somehow doubt Pilate, being a member of the Knightly Class of Roman society, would have stooped to speaking Aramaic and probably would have used Latin or Greek instead. That would indicate that Jesus spoke at least some of one or the other. As you so eloquently stated.one can use logic and reason to arrive at a conclusion. And just why would the fact that Jesus was not a Roman citizen have anything to do with whether or not he spoke Latin? That doesn’t make any sense at all.

Just so you know there were many, many, perhaps a majority of Jews of that time period who did have full or partial Roman citizenship. St Paul springs to mind among many others.

And what point exactly are you trying to make anyway? Your comments are all over the place.

 

[palmas85]

the mass didn’t change. the mass can’t change first off otherwise we wouldn’t have a mass. think of vat II as adding a new coat of paint to your house. its still the same house just looks different. also i for one would like to know what im talking about so im glad we use a language we can understand rather then something that is very very hard to learn. I went to a crowning mass for mary tonight and we sang ave maria. seriously who the heck can pronounce these words. also its good too that they changed it because people then were just blindly saying things no one had a clue what they were saying. you could be saying hail satan and no one would know.

Actually Bostonboy, most of us, at least most of the people that I know did know exactly what we were saying, singng and praying back in those days.
Believe it or not.

I find your posts to be some of the most bigoted, prejuduced and hate filled that I have ever seen on this forum. How dare you make such statements and assumptions about those who grew up prior to Vatican II.

…

 

[barbara_manix]

Good for you!!! Yes cathilics are way out of touch and not even preaching the truth----get in the bible------john 3:16–god bless you!!!

 

[grandfather]

Actually Bostonboy, most of us, at least most of the people that I know did know exactly what we were saying, singng and praying back in those days.
Believe it or not.

I find your posts to be some of the most bigoted, prejuduced and hate filled that I have ever seen on this forum. How dare you make such statements and assumptions about those who grew up prior to Vatican II.

…

I don’t know about bigoted or hate filled. Maybe illinformed, opinionated, ignorant. He is parotting what he’s heard.

Keep in mind, we don’t know what we don’t know. There are a lot of people who say they were raised Catholic, and they were, sort of, but not really. They were never catechized properly. They naturally think they know what Catohlicism is. That is understandable. They went to CCD and were told something. But they know very little and perhaps are even misinformed, but they were raised Catholic. If they leave the Church they think they know what they left. They know what they were told. They don’t know what they don’t know.

So today we also have a lot of people who think they know what it was like to be Catholic pre-VII. The information they have is what they were told: Everyone mumbled prayers they did not understand in a dead language. People just sat in pews and were clueless about what was happening. They did not get to sing folk songs and clap a lot. It is like Protestants thinking they know what the Catholic faith is about, because their Sunday school teacher told them. So BostonBoy has an attitude and opinions that come from this type of ignorance. I don’t think that makes him hate filled by any stretch. His attitude is quite understandable.

 

[I_Believe]

I don’t know about bigoted or hate filled. Maybe illinformed, opinionated, ignorant. He is parotting what he’s heard.

Keep in mind, we don’t know what we don’t know. There are a lot of people who say they were raised Catholic, and they were, sort of, but not really. They were never catechized properly. They naturally think they know what Catohlicism is. That is understandable. They went to CCD and were told something. But they know very little and perhaps are even misinformed, but they were raised Catholic. If they leave the Church they think they know what they left. They know what they were told. They don’t know what they don’t know.

So today we also have a lot of people who think they know what it was like to be Catholic pre-VII. The information they have is what they were told: Everyone mumbled prayers they did not understand in a dead language. People just sat in pews and were clueless about what was happening. They did not get to sing folk songs and clap a lot. It is like Protestants thinking they know what the Catholic faith is about, because their Sunday school teacher told them. So BostonBoy has an attitude and opinions that come from this type of ignorance. I don’t think that makes him hate filled by any stretch. His attitude is quite understandable.

A lot of truth in that. We are as good a Catholic as what we are fed from the pulpit.

 

[I_Believe]

Hello,

I am planning on visiting the TLM this Saturday for the first time in my life. What does one do? Just sit silently and reverently? I thought I would ask this here because I don’t want to seem like an idiot when I go.

Thank you.

Follow grandfather’s good advice and visit this site…

sanctamissa.org/en/tutorial/

 

[brotherhrolf]

So today we also have a lot of people who think they know what it was like to be Catholic pre-VII. The information they have is what they were told: Everyone mumbled prayers they did not understand in a dead language. People just sat in pews and were clueless about what was happening. They did not get to sing folk songs and clap a lot.

Which is why I wanted those of us who actually went through the late '60s to talk about their experience. There were those of us who were happy with HMC as it existed before Vatican II and those who embraced the changes whole hearedly. I just don’t want people to forget that it was an incredibly turbulent time and was baffling to a whole bunch of people out in the pews.

Just sit back and imagine the confusion in the pews if it were announced that starting Sunday we were moving back to the 1962 Missal and pre-Vatican II liturgical practices? No more socializing or talking before Mass. No more turn around and introduce yourself to your neighbor. No more running around during the Sign of Peace. That would be earth shaking to some folks. So, too, were the changes after Vatican II.

 

[palmas85]

I don’t know about bigoted or hate filled. Maybe illinformed, opinionated, ignorant. He is parotting what he’s heard.

Keep in mind, we don’t know what we don’t know. There are a lot of people who say they were raised Catholic, and they were, sort of, but not really. They were never catechized properly. They naturally think they know what Catohlicism is. That is understandable. They went to CCD and were told something. But they know very little and perhaps are even misinformed, but they were raised Catholic. If they leave the Church they think they know what they left. They know what they were told. They don’t know what they don’t know.

So today we also have a lot of people who think they know what it was like to be Catholic pre-VII. The information they have is what they were told: Everyone mumbled prayers they did not understand in a dead language. People just sat in pews and were clueless about what was happening. They did not get to sing folk songs and clap a lot. It is like Protestants thinking they know what the Catholic faith is about, because their Sunday school teacher told them. So BostonBoy has an attitude and opinions that come from this type of ignorance. I don’t think that makes him hate filled by any stretch. His attitude is quite understandable.

It might be understandable if there was nothing to counteract it. On this thread alone however there are statements by people who were there in the pre Vatican II days as well as in numerous other threads that directly contradict what he says. He pays absolutely no attention to them and continues throwing out his blind, I’ll grant you that, hatred, ignorance and yes even arrogance towards the pre Vatican II Church. And quite frankly, I’m tired of it. I am sick to death of people who weren’t there and who don’t have a clue what actually happened coming here and telling those of us that were and that actually lived it are liars or worse. If the attitude that we, Brotherrolf, others who were there and I, are all ignorant uniformed neanderthals is understandable then there is something very very wrong going on here. Vey wrong indeed…

Showing charity doesn’t mean accepting every lie and falsehood that pops up as being understandable, acceptable and OK…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I converted to the church in 1983, while in college, before there were reallly good RCIA classes, so my learning has been largely self-taught. But the more I learn about the Holiness of the Mass, the more I dislike the modern mass. I now attend a Latin NO on Sundays at a Dominican Parish.

I believe that if parishenors (sp?)

parishioners ​

were more educated about what is going on on the alter and what the Liturgy of thte Word was leading to, there would be a much larger demand for more holiness.

As the readings this past Sunday discussed, we are the sheep to be shepharded and if our Shephards aren’t doing thier job, we will go astray.

So while you “older” folks want to complain about the direction the church has gone, why not help the Shephards educate and teach the true faith and the true meaning of Vatican II. Saint Francis says to go out and preach, and only use words if necessary.

I don’t think we late-comers are meant to reply - I got in slightly before you, & and I wouldn’t go back to the 1962 Mass (which I attended, even served at, for 10 years - it’s not something I know of only from books, not by a long way) if you paid me. I think it is essentially better than the other in a number of ways: a pearl is still a pearl, even if it’s coated in, & stinks of, dung. Whatever other arguments might be used against the revised Missal (& certain authors have elaborated plenty of them, of all conceivable kinds), the argument from abuse is one of the least convincing. It appeals strongly to the imagination, & that is its strength & its weakness.​

 

[CradleCath]

This is the Traditional Catholicsm forum I consider myself to be a traditional Catholic in that I am a cradle Catholic who was educated in Catholic schools from 1956 through 1969. I was perfectly happy being a Catholic when the Catholic world changed around 1967. I lived the transition from the TLM to the NO.

Brotherhrolf, I’ve been trying to answer this post for several days & each time I did I’d get part way through my response, only to be interrupted by life :whackadoo: (Grandkids came to fish; husband needed help in his shop & on & on). Sorry that it took me so long. I lived that transition myself. I’m also a Cradle Catholic & was in my 20’s throughout the council.

There is an idea on this forum that it was a “slam-dunk” change. **That we never knew what we were saying in Latin **

 

[Brenda_V]

I never knew anything other than the dialogue Mass (Missa Cantata) on Sunday unless it was the 6am Low Mass. The parish recited or chanted the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Preface-Canon, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei. Pretty much everything we do as a congregation today in the OF.

brother, I am somewhat younger than you (at least in terms of being able to remember before Vat 2) but we must always have attended the dialogue Mass you speak of because I can remember being so excited that I could follow along in my moms Missal! I was a very early reader, reading by the age of 4 what the children today call chapter books!

I always enjoy your reminiscences because although it is far more detailed than mine, it helps me remember some things.

I do know that in my life experiences though Vat. 2 and the changes to Mass occurred much slower than you remember. I was in third grade the year Vat. 2 was promulgated and one of my clear memories was of learning the guitar Mass songs at the end of the day. We had mimeographed copies of the words and the Principal of our school would get on the PA system and the whole school would practice the songs so when Sunday came around we could be singing the songs correctly while the rest of the congregation had all of us spread through out helping them.

Then about 2 years later we moved. We moved to Turkey where our Chaplain Priest would say Mass in 1/2 hr. and tell us to go out and see the ruins of where Paul used to walk. I don’t remember when we went from kneeling to standing to receive but it was sometime in the three years we were overseas, 18 months in Turkey, 18 months in Germany with an entire month travel in between through Greece and Italy to travel in.

I just know that by the time we got back to the States and I was back in a Catholic School (Benedictines, I think it was Sacred Heart Sisters in grade school) we were no longer receiving kneeling but still on the tongue, Folk Masses were still being said and I got to witness my first and last Liturgical Dance with one dancer. There was a scandal that was being whispered about when I started, apparently one of the young new sisters who didn’t wear the Habit and a young Priest ran off and got married - I don’t even know if they did it the right way because everyone around me was so hurt by and of course, being new and young I didn’t think to point that out.

RE classes in High School were really good in 9th and 10th grade then we got into some of the weird stuff although as a senior (12th grade) we were taught about NFP but still were told about how our conscience should be our guide on things - no mention of well formed conscience though.

Brenda V.

 

[CradleCath]

the mass didn’t change. the mass can’t change first off otherwise we wouldn’t have a mass. think of vat II as adding a new coat of paint to your house. its still the same house just looks different. also i for one would like to know what im talking about so im glad we use a language we can understand rather then something that is very very hard to learn. I went to a crowning mass for mary tonight and we sang ave maria. seriously who the heck can pronounce these words. also its good too that they changed it because people then were just blindly saying things no one had a clue what they were saying. you could be saying hail satan and no one would know.

You have GOT to be kidding. At least, I hope you are!

 

[mullenpm]

GRANDFATHER, V2 had nothing to do with the problems you had in your Parish and neither did the Pauline Mass, so don’t imply they did.

I am way older than you - graduated high school the year you were born.

There were problems in parishes before V2 also. People talked during Mass, they came late and stood in the back of the church.

But, I must agree with you about the Latin. How silly to say we didn’t know what we were saying. As you said, the Missal had English on one side and Latin on the other. How could anyone not know what the words to the Ave Maria meant.

BostonBoy, you don’t know what you are talking about. Go on line and get the prayers in Latin and look at them.

Or better yet, watch the Daily Mass on EWTN - say the Our Father in Latin with them. Learn the words.

I learned the Latin Mass in Catholic grade school (that is what we called it back in the dark ages). If children can learn it, why can’t you.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I think, Brotherhrolf, that the very fact that …through all of this…we STILL loved our Church enough to stay, to pray, to pass our experiences, both positive & negative, on to another generation of Catholics…says a lot about us. For, if I had to go through it all again to remain a Catholic…I would.

 

[Brenda_V]

CradleCath;5178115:

Brenda, the changes were that quick in my experience. I didn’t live here in Baton Rouge when St. Joseph’s was just a parish church. I’ve seen pictures of it, though. Baton Rouge had just been named a diocese and our church was one of the very first to be renovated around 1967. The architect was sensitive to the fact that the church was over a hundred years old but they ripped out the ornate French communion rail; they gave most of the statues to parishoners; and they tore out the choir loft and the pipe organ and installed an absolutely state-of-the-art tube electronic organ. Twenty years later in 1988 they organ shorted out during a choir member’s weddding (I saw it with my own eyes) and could not be repaired because no one made vacuum tubes any more. In 1992 the choir loft was restored and a new pipe organ was installed. Elements of the communion rail were used for the railing on the choir loft which inspired parishoners to start returning statues from the altar. These are quietly being reincorporated back into the cathedral.

I have great hope that maybe this signals that the tide has turned and that we will think about our profound Catholic heritage and what got left behind in our rush to change.

Brother - I don’t doubt the changes were that fast in your Parish. I have to wonder if some of the reason I didn’t experience that is that the Parish I attended when it started was relatively new - founded in 1926. The church was pretty plain inside as I remember it (was only about 30 years old when I went there) so it hadn’t had time to purchase a lot of statues but it did have statues, none of which I recall being removed. Now the Confessionals were still there the last time I was there (about 20 years ago), the Altar rails were gone but I don’t recall the altar or anything else. Then we moved and mostly went to either churches in the Country we lived (altars hadn’t been torn down but no altar rails and no evidence there ever were any, at least in the one in Turkey which was far older than any church in the US could be) or Base Chapels which were shared with the Protestants (that is when I learned Protestant wasn’t a religion in and of itself but one of many different Christian groups).

I will say that I believe the pendulum has swung back. If I could find pictures of the inside of St. Thomas here in RR I would post them. This Parish is somewhere around 30 years old and we have slowly been adding beautiful statues - we did have a statue of St. Michael (the famous one of him throwing Satan out of Heaven). We have Stained glass windows (not as beautiful as some I have seen but you have to remember I have seen some of the best in my travels as a child) but they are not just colored glass, they portray a Bible story which is what in my mind they should.

Now the new Mission Parish is in it’s own building which will one day be our Parish Hall, for being just a “gym” you would be surprised at how beautiful we have made it, even though we sit on folding chairs the reverence is great too. Fr. is working on getting enough money to buy those garden kneel pad things so we have enough for everyone to kneel (which I still won’t be able to due to a really bad knee). See here sjvnm.org/ There is now a cross on the roof above the doors.

Brenda V.

 

[CradleCath]

parishioners ​

I don’t think we late-comers are meant to reply - I got in slightly before you, & and I wouldn’t go back to the 1962 Mass (which I attended, even served at, for 10 years - it’s not something I know of only from books, not by a long way) if you paid me. **I think it is essentially better than the other in a number of ways: a pearl is still a pearl, even if it’s coated in, & stinks of, dung. **Whatever other arguments might be used against the revised Missal (& certain authors have elaborated plenty of them, of all conceivable kinds), the argument from abuse is one of the least convincing. It appeals strongly to the imagination, & that is its strength & its weakness.​

Perhaps I’ve misunderstood? Are you referring to the Sacrifice of the Mass…any Catholic Mass, as something that is a pearl that’s " coated in & stinks of dung"? Shame on you, if that’s what you’re saying. Whether Novus Ordo, TLM., the Liturgy of the Eastern Churches…it’s still a Mass.

And, if you haven’t seen abuses in the Novus Ordo Mass, you are a very lucky person. I have…more than I want to remember.

 

[grandfather]

GRANDFATHER, V2 had nothing to do with the problems you had in your Parish and neither did the Pauline Mass, so don’t imply they did.

 

[CradleCath]

Perhaps one of the saddest and profound changes I noted is that we used to pray as teenagers. The chapel in the brother’s residence was always open. We had Confraternity of the Sacred Heart and made our nine first Friday’s. We simply popped in to make a visit to the Blessed Sacrament. Churches were wide open during the day and pray I did.** “Dear Lord help me pass this algebra test”. ** Seriously though, I asked the kids what part prayer played in their lives. Did they go to the chapel during lunch? My sons’ high school didn’t have a chapel. Mass was said in the school cafeteria. Other kids in other Catholic schools said the chapel was locked.

You gave me a few chuckles with the algebra test prayers. Been there, done that. In elementary school we trekked our way across the playground to the Church everyday. Since we’d fasted from midnight on, we were allowed to either bring our breakfast or partake of the one fixed in the cafeteria after Mass. In high school we had a chapel in which we attended daily Mass. We also had a grotto with a statue of Mater Admirabilis . There was a kneeler in her alcove & I spent more than a few hours there praying for an A in Latin or asking Mater to intercede for me concerning a certain boy.
However, not all of those hours were spent asking for help with minor, silly things. I offered many, MANY prayers of gratitude to the Virgin for just being the Mother of the Church, my own Blessed Mother.

**Brenda, the changes were that quick in my experience. I didn’t live here in Baton Rouge when St. Joseph’s was just a parish church. **

They were swift & final in my Cathedral parish, too.

 

[lizaanne]

Saw this on Facebook and it made me think of this discussion (you may have to click the image to make it big enough to read):

View attachment 5759

~Liza