B
Brickmaker
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**
If not, what does this quote mean?
: I the Lord that do all these things. **
If not, what does this quote mean?
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FCEGM
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From the Haydock commentary:
If not, what does this quote mean?
Ver. 7. Create evil, &c. The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin. (Challoner) — I afflict and comfort my people.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id1265.html
To further clarify: This is a reference to the permissive will of God which allows us to undergo trials for our perfection. St. Thomas Aquinas is of help in understanding this; he makes a distinction between of evils of fault and evils of penalty.
You can read the full article here:“In the former, culpability rested squarely in the lacking in both being and will of the secondary per accidens causes of evil, namely, finite human beings and their will, and the lacking of being found in other imperfect beings. The latter evil of penalty was necessary evil in order to contribute to the perfecting of the cosmos in that it was just for such penalty to occur. Without it the cosmos would not strive toward perfection, which is the natural intention of a perfect being such as God. As a result we found that it was not the intentions of God to have either kind of evil (privation), but nonetheless the evil of penalty is permitted in order for the cosmos to intend to a perfecting ordered and just cosmos. Hence, God is the efficient cause of evils only per accidens, i.e., only in the sense of God sustaining all being to progress toward an ordered and perfecting reality, hence God is not culpable. Second, we can conclude that all evils ultimately arose due to the secondary per accidens causes of finite and imperfect beings, as both fault and penalty. For if there were no imperfect beings there would be no need for penalty or fault,” “Thomas Aquinas on The Metaphysical Problem of Evil” by Bill King, Quodlibet Online Journal.
quodlibet.net/articles/king-aquinas.shtml
J
JOHNONEVI
Guest
Greetings Brickmaker,
Isaiah became a prophet at a time when the Jewish nation was enslaved by Babylon. They were a defeated nation and for the Jewish nation it was a time of violence and despair. So in their grief they cried out to the Lord. And the Lord responded by annointing Isaiah and He spoke through him as a prophet.Passage 45:7 was a reference to the Babylonian civilisation who worshipped idols and false gods.When Isaiah proclaims that the Lord has created all things good and evil, He is stating that everything even the Babylonians practicing their idolatry falls under His sovreignity.He is the Lord of all. And even they will become instruments of his will. Also it is a very convoluted way of telling the Israelites that they are forgiven for their past digressions and that he will use their sins as a way of teaching or evangleiazing them.By forgiving their past He is able to demonstrate t His love and in doing so he becomes an example for us like a good parent how we should treat one another. With love and forbearance.
Johnonevi
Isaiah became a prophet at a time when the Jewish nation was enslaved by Babylon. They were a defeated nation and for the Jewish nation it was a time of violence and despair. So in their grief they cried out to the Lord. And the Lord responded by annointing Isaiah and He spoke through him as a prophet.Passage 45:7 was a reference to the Babylonian civilisation who worshipped idols and false gods.When Isaiah proclaims that the Lord has created all things good and evil, He is stating that everything even the Babylonians practicing their idolatry falls under His sovreignity.He is the Lord of all. And even they will become instruments of his will. Also it is a very convoluted way of telling the Israelites that they are forgiven for their past digressions and that he will use their sins as a way of teaching or evangleiazing them.By forgiving their past He is able to demonstrate t His love and in doing so he becomes an example for us like a good parent how we should treat one another. With love and forbearance.
Johnonevi
D
DOShea
Guest
Let me offer you another way to help understand it.
The form of this verse is a type of Hebrew poetry called parallelism. In parallelistic poetry, a thought is expressed and the lines that follow it sort of… amplify it, if you will, in some way. There are many sub-forms of parallelism such as synonymous, where the same basic thought is repeated such as Psalm 36:5; synthetic parallelism, where the subsequent lines give more detail about the original thought, such as Psalm 19:8-10; and antithetic parallelism where the second line or thought expresses the opposite of the first, such as this verse.
Now consider how these thoughts form opposites, like “hot” and “cold.”
I form the light (opposite ->) and create darkness
I make peace (opposite ->) and create evil. (<- There is a discontinuity there)
The opposite of peace would be war, OR, the opposite of evil would be good, but evil isn’t opposite peace… or is it? In our language, in our understanding of the concept “evil” there is no apparent connection. But to the Hebrews of Isaiah’s time, “evil” was not understood to simply mean the opposite of good. “Evil” was more of concept of a combination of things, meaning not only bad but calamity, disaster, doom, and other words like it. You can sort of get this from the phrase “…rain evil upon…” It doesn’t mean “rain bad upon,” but more of sense like “…bring calamity to…” or “…rain disaster upon…”
So in this sense, the word “evil” is used in the sense of the English word “calamity” or “destruction.” Try reading the verse with that in mind and you will see it is NOT saying that God creates “evil” in the sense we think of that word. It is just something that is lost in the way a translation does not bring over with it the sense or meaning of word as written by the author. As the above poster points out, this verse is at the time of the Babylonian captivity. Certainly Jews who were enslaved there knew that God could bring peace and prosperity as they once enjoyed, and now they are knee deep in the “evil” part, brought about by their turning away from God. This is the point Isaiah is trying to make to them.
I compliment you on such an exceptional catch! Most people breeze right by that verse without a second thought.
The form of this verse is a type of Hebrew poetry called parallelism. In parallelistic poetry, a thought is expressed and the lines that follow it sort of… amplify it, if you will, in some way. There are many sub-forms of parallelism such as synonymous, where the same basic thought is repeated such as Psalm 36:5; synthetic parallelism, where the subsequent lines give more detail about the original thought, such as Psalm 19:8-10; and antithetic parallelism where the second line or thought expresses the opposite of the first, such as this verse.
Now consider how these thoughts form opposites, like “hot” and “cold.”
I form the light (opposite ->) and create darkness
I make peace (opposite ->) and create evil. (<- There is a discontinuity there)
The opposite of peace would be war, OR, the opposite of evil would be good, but evil isn’t opposite peace… or is it? In our language, in our understanding of the concept “evil” there is no apparent connection. But to the Hebrews of Isaiah’s time, “evil” was not understood to simply mean the opposite of good. “Evil” was more of concept of a combination of things, meaning not only bad but calamity, disaster, doom, and other words like it. You can sort of get this from the phrase “…rain evil upon…” It doesn’t mean “rain bad upon,” but more of sense like “…bring calamity to…” or “…rain disaster upon…”
So in this sense, the word “evil” is used in the sense of the English word “calamity” or “destruction.” Try reading the verse with that in mind and you will see it is NOT saying that God creates “evil” in the sense we think of that word. It is just something that is lost in the way a translation does not bring over with it the sense or meaning of word as written by the author. As the above poster points out, this verse is at the time of the Babylonian captivity. Certainly Jews who were enslaved there knew that God could bring peace and prosperity as they once enjoyed, and now they are knee deep in the “evil” part, brought about by their turning away from God. This is the point Isaiah is trying to make to them.
I compliment you on such an exceptional catch! Most people breeze right by that verse without a second thought.
B
Brickmaker
Guest
Thank you, FCEGM, JOHNONEVI and DOShea for your explanations.
I cannot say that I’m convinced by Aquinas’s distinction between the evils of fault and evils of penalty. Smacks too much of sophistry. But then I was never a fan.
I cannot say that I’m convinced by Aquinas’s distinction between the evils of fault and evils of penalty. Smacks too much of sophistry. But then I was never a fan.
J
JOHNONEVI
Guest
Greetings, Brickmaker,
You are very welcome. johnonevi
You are very welcome. johnonevi
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