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Trident_H
Guest
Pretty sure we don’t want you leaving us over this TTF. You’re a good sort. Stick around. Especially now that everything’s cleared up. Don’t be sad about it.
Peace.
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Peace.
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CRATUS
Guest
Do you mean we are “normalizing” it? Or making the “wrong” people role models? This is sort of a funny example though.I know the family & the girl having her baby, baptized. She was an altar server a few years ago. After her boyfriend got her pregnant, he took off. Her parents are now watching the child while she works.
I shouldn’t have used this as an example…it just bothered me, the pastor held up the baby in front of the whole congregation at the Baptism & the pictures were in the next week’s bulletin.
I’m just trying to answer the OP’s original question about leniency.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
If the sinner already knows that he is committing a sin then yes, it would be superfluous to tell them something they already know. From what I have seen, this is usually not the case.
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CRATUS
Guest
You have more faith in humanity than I do. I generally think adults know damn well what they are doing so they choose to do it.
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
Yes, many do know very well that they are sinning but don’t care. Perhaps I should have said that many disagree with the Church’s moral teachings and thereby don’t believe that they are sinning. They know what the Church teaches but don’t believe it. This is what I have seen most of the time, and they need to be taught of the sinful nature of their actions.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
O.K. so you would deny a baby baptism because of the mothers sin (if indeed she is a single mother out of sin and not because she was widowed or raped)? What is the babies sin that makes it unworthy to be baptized? You know that she has not confessed the sin and was not sorry for it? You know that she can’t fulfill the baptismal promises she will make? You think the best way to keep the mother repentant and trying to live out her faith is to deny her child baptism? You reserve all these judgments for yourself? Just what do you think everyone should say to this mother–who has made a mistake but wants to have her baby baptized? What do you propose be done? The scarlet A or F, tar and feathering or sack cloth and ashes?
Perhaps you don’t sin, but if you do–should these same people that you want calling out this single mother–say something to you? Should you be called out? Even if you went to confession? Should the priest make you wear sack cloth and ashes as your penance–so that we all know you confessed and that the priest was tough on you?
I am thankful that our Lord Jesus Christ did not look at me and my sin and deem me unworthy to be saved–unworthy to be baptized or unworthy to have my children baptized.
Parents can only try so hard–at a certain point you drive your child away from any dialogue–from any chance of them seeing the truth, from any chance of them coming home to the faith. You are certain that no parents say anything–that they all just ignore it? Their children are grown adults–it’s not like you can punish them any longer. You can in the spirit of St. Monica continue to pray for them, but then perhaps you think St. Monica was a terrible parent too because of how her son behaved. Your children can know what you think and how you feel and still they can ignore it. The question then becomes whats the best way to bring them around.
I don’t know if we are too lenient on sin–I’m not privy to the penances being handed out other than my own. I think western society as a whole has lost a sense of sin–and so many people don’t think they’re sinning–and that’s a big problem. Perhaps my fellow Catholics aren’t confessing–I only know that every time I go I’m always waiting in line–the confessional box is not empty.
The peace of Christ,
Mark
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truetofaith
Guest
I never said the baby shouldn’t be Baptized…
This thread is completely out of hand. I stated my position earlier…Yes we are too lenient on sin in this day and age, period!
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Confiteor_Deo
Guest
I agree that the Church is too lenient on sinners as well. Just looking at the Synod one can see how they are trying to change disciplines and language that will be more accepting of the sinner and won’t offend them. All this change will simply confuse everyone and make them think their sin is nonexistent or trivial.
Nowadays, too, sin is nearly a forgotten doctrine in many parishes with Confession being downplayed and mortal sins being passed off as a result of “being too hard on yourself”.
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TheFraggle
Guest
Since most priests try to make you feel good about yourself in silly homilies about nothing, and say nothing on abortifacients, such as the birth control pill, or even go over the examination of conscience, then I would have to say yes. Sin is not taught from the pulpit.
My brother once said in a meeting with other Catholics how many are using contraception, and it is a sin. Most of them left the table upon hearing this. So, essentially many Catholics are molding the Church in their own image, and not God’s.
My brother once said in a meeting with other Catholics how many are using contraception, and it is a sin. Most of them left the table upon hearing this. So, essentially many Catholics are molding the Church in their own image, and not God’s.
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Trident_H
Guest
I think it’s like this. No one wants someone to come along and tell them they’re wrong. And in a way it’s not really fair to do that. What is fair is to give a better example for being right and then let them decide to want that. To want that more than what they’ve got. Because people always want what they don’t have. Or what they think they’re missing out on. But if you tell people they’re wrong they aren’t going to all nod enthusiastically and agree. They’re going to be surprised. Then hurt. Then angry. Then resentful. Then embarrassed. Then confused. Then apathetic. Then accepting. And then maybe apologetic. But they’re still leaving the table.
Peace.
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TheFraggle
Guest
We’ve tried this Trident, and it isn’t working. In truth, people are never told they’re wrong, which is exactly what is wrong with the Church today. And if you are in mortal sin, and coming to God’s table to receive him (which is a sacrilege), then someone needs to tell them. Scripture says it is good to admonish the sinner, and I believe that it is a spiritual work of mercy as well. And if people disagree, then they should indeed leave, and good riddance! That’s one bad apple gone. Best not to spoil the bunch.
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Paganus
Guest
You could try reading Karol Wojtyla’s Love & Responsibility. It’s discussion of pornography specifically is very brief - only two pages - however some have found his personalistic treatment of human sexuality to be transformative. In summary, he condemns pornography not for showing too much of people, but too little.
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Sarcelle
Guest
So in your own words how do we reverse this situation?
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truetofaith
Guest
At least once a month, priests should include a sermon that makes the congregation aware of the sins which are being ignored in our society, today…such as young & older people living together & having children without being married.
Also, they should recommend from the pulpit that people should go to Confession on a regular basis…and name the sins that people feel are not mortal. Anger, envy, gossip, cursing at someone to the extent that their spirit is broken. Many people commit these sins but never confess them before receiving Communion.
Parents, whose children no longer attend Mass, must take the responsibility of instructing their children, themselves. If the kids are getting high or drunk, or getting ready to live together in sin, the parent must admonish this behavior.
The person may not comply but these behaviors should not be ignored or simply accepted!
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maryjk
Guest
Do you have children? And if so, do you have children of an age that could commit the sins you are writing about?
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truetofaith
Guest
Yes, a daughter…but she’s married now. When she was intending to share a place with her future husband…I told her, “You better be living there like Mother Theresa & St. Francis, in separate bedrooms.”
You can’t force them, but you can give them your values.
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CRATUS
Guest
Lol. You are funny indeed. I like your suggestion for mass.
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CRATUS
Guest
How do you correct people without attacking them? To be honest, sometimes the truth just hurts and all you can do is just own it. People should be embarrassed about their sins. It hurts to admit you are not perfect or a sinner. I think it is natural people react angrily or become defensive when their sins are called out. Does that make the speaker wrong? I do not know.
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Trident_H
Guest
Well there’s some truth to this I guess. But man if you’d come to me a year ago and started to tell me just what kind of guy I was I wouldn’t have stayed to hear you draw your next breath. The thing is it would all have been true. But putting it to me when I wasn’t ready is like giving a kid a push on a swing before they’ve got their hands in place. They just go flying away from you and don’t come back. What I’d have needed was someone to take me by the hand a bit and guide me home. I mean you don’t yell at a kid who’s lost. You don’t yell at him to go home. You take the time to care first. You hear him out first. Then you spend the effort to bring him back to his front door. Or something.
Peace.
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Trident_H
Guest
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