Are we what we do or do we do what we are?

[jkiernan56]

I was mulling this question to the thread and as I was tossing it around it brought to mind something St. Augustine said - “Love God and Do What You Will”.

I have come to the conclusion that the truth of the question is in the middle.

Looking at my own life experience, I know I have a long long way to go looking foward to what God is calling me and each one of us to be. But I also know that looking backwards that I have also come a long long way from where I used to be. I know growth in Love (for God, myself, and others) is only because of a personal experience of Gods love (Grace).

If is because of experiencing God’s personal love I am enabled to love (God, myself, and my neighbor) - the answer to the question (am I what I do or is what I do because of who I am?) seems to me to be in the middle.​

If a Sacrament is a visible sign of an invisible reality that confers Grace, and if we truly love God as St. Augustine states, isn’t the latter part his statement (Do What You Will) the visible sign of that invisible reality? (ie - our actions are a reflection of this invisible reality? (ie - we become Sacraments of God’s Love to each other).

We are what we do and we do what we are. God’s Love changes everything.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with you but I think it’s important to avoid the idea of predestination - which, ironically, many people associate with St Augustine - by referring to “what you will”:

“We do what we will to do and become what we will to become.”

 

[jkiernan56]

I agree with you but I think it’s important to avoid the idea of predestination - which, ironically, many people associate with St Augustine - by referring to “what you will”:

“We do what we will to do and become what we will to become.”

Thank you Tonyrey for your comments. I enjoy tossing and turning these kinds of things around in my brain. I know it is easier to think about love than to do it. But hey, at least I’m even trying to think about it.

Many people associate predestination with St. Augustine? If so, then they have a misunderstanding of his writings and therefore of St. Augustine.

Loving God and doing what you will go hand in hand - are instrinsically linked. What you do IS your love for God and neighbor on display. Just as Christ taught us the two greatest comandments are instinsically linked - love of God and love of neighbor - so too are Love God and Do What You Will. It is another way of St. Augustine saying what Christ already said to us.

I really liked your last coment and about what we will, what we do, and what we become.

 

[Leela]

Thank you Tonyrey for your comments. I enjoy tossing and turning these kinds of things around in my brain. I know it is easier to think about love than to do it. But hey, at least I’m even trying to think about it.

Many people associate predestination with St. Augustine? If so, then they have a misunderstanding of his writings and therefore of St. Augustine.

Loving God and doing what you will go hand in hand - are instrinsically linked. What you do IS your love for God and neighbor on display. Just as Christ taught us the two greatest comandments are instinsically linked - love of God and love of neighbor - so too are Love God and Do What You Will. It is another way of St. Augustine saying what Christ already said to us.

I really liked your last coment and about what we will, what we do, and what we become.

I think we are what we do. What sense would it make to say, “sure I do mean things all the time, but I’m really a nice person.”?

The Christian perspective seems to be that we are what we believe.

 

[jkiernan56]

I think we are what we do. What sense would it make to say, “sure I do mean things all the time, but I’m really a nice person.”?

The Christian perspective seems to be that we are what we believe.

Leela,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I really do sincerely appreciate you and your (name removed by moderator)ut - even though we may be on opposite sides of the universe on issues. I’m surprised that you even still try to engage me because of the ways I have responded to you in the past. I bark alot but don’t bite … LOL

I agree with you that we are what we do - but at the same time agree that we do what we are (the other side of the coin, but the same coin).

Regarding the Christian perspective that we are what we believe - I don’t know it is so much as “we are” what we believe as much as it is that “we become” what we believe. Hopefully if what we believe is rooted in truth, then what we become is also rooted in reality as well. Ultimately for me, real truth points and leads to real love - and that is what I hope to become - a more loving, kind, forgiving, generous person that does not read a book by it’s cover (ie - people).

Thank you again for anything and everything you have to contribute - even if I may not agree with you about most.

 

[Katholish]

In the broad philosophical picture, you do what you do because of what you are. Action follows being. You can only do the kinds of things that you do because you have a nature which has those powers. I think this is a more general point, however, than what you are looking for.

It seems that you are asking about virtuous actions, which is a little different. If you have a particular virtue, you perform the good actions associated with that virtue because you have the virtue. So it would seem that in the life of virtue you also do what you do because of what you are. However, some virtues are acquired virtues, which means that you become virtuous through the performance of repeated good actions, and thus it seems true to some degree that you are what you are because of what you do. (Some virtues are infused, and not acquired, so this isn’t true of all virtue.)

 

[jkiernan56]

In the broad philosophical picture, you do what you do because of what you are. Action follows being. You can only do the kinds of things that you do because you have a nature which has those powers. I think this is a more general point, however, than what you are looking for.

It seems that you are asking about virtuous actions, which is a little different. If you have a particular virtue, you perform the good actions associated with that virtue because you have the virtue. So it would seem that in the life of virtue you also do what you do because of what you are. However, some virtues are acquired virtues, which means that you become virtuous through the performance of repeated good actions, and thus it seems true to some degree that you are what you are because of what you do. (Some virtues are infused, and not acquired, so this isn’t true of all virtue.)

Honestly, I’m not even sure exactly what I am looking for, but hopefully by asking the question that was on my mind over the weekend, it will encourage and stimulate thoughts to help me better understand.

I love St. Augustine and so I am mulling the question to this thread in light of his saying “Love God and Do What You Will”. That one statement alone raises so many other questions. Just as soon as I start looking at one of the worms in the jar, there is another one that pops out. I pause just at the opening words - Love God. You speak of virtuous actions and that automatically makes me ask what is the source of virtuous actions? Does a person who does virtuous acts mean necessarily they are moving towards God (Love)? Can a person do something that “looks virtuous” on the outside, but in reality is it according to the one who knows all things? Isn’t it possible to perform good acts with bad motives? I am not asking you to answer these questions, but rather just trying to show you how this is like a can of worms.

If what I do is what I am and what I am is what I do, then essentially the most important thing is “what I am” or rather maybe “who I am”. And for me that is something that is always in a state of change. In my limited understanding so far, what I am and who I am are constantly changing and that again raises all other kinds of questions … LOL

 

[Katholish]

jkiernan56,
The questions you ask regarding my comments about virtuous action all have fairly simple answers, so I will take them in turn.

You speak of virtuous actions and that automatically makes me ask what is the source of virtuous actions?

Virtue is a habit. The source of virtuous actions, is the virtue (or habit of doing the good).

Does a person who does virtuous acts mean necessarily they are moving towards God (Love)?

If it is a virtuous act that is the result of a purely natural/acquired virtue, then it does not necessarily led one to God, but it does make one objectively more open to God, and better disposed to follow God if he so chooses. If the virtuous act stems from an infused virtue and is hence informed by charity, then it does necessarily lead one closer to God.

Can a person do something that “looks virtuous” on the outside, but in reality is it according to the one who knows all things?

I don’t really understand the second part of the question. It is possible to do something which looks virtuous but is not done out of habit and hence is not virtuous even though it is good.

Isn’t it possible to perform good acts with bad motives?

Yes and No. Intention determines to some degree whether a particular act is a “good” human action, and a bad intention can of itself make an otherwise good action bad. Insofar as actions have some objective quality, however, yes, it is possible to perform good actions with bad intentions (like saving a baby’s life so you can steal the parent’s money or something silly like that).

As for the quote from Augustine, I am afraid without context it has very little meaning. Here it is in context. It is from Homily 7 on First John:

This we have said in the case where the things done are similar. In the case where they are diverse, we find a man by charity made fierce; and by iniquity made winningly gentle. A father beats a boy, and a boy-stealer caresses. If you name the two things, blows and caresses, who would not choose the caresses, and decline the blows? If you mark the persons, it is charity that beats, iniquity that caresses. See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good.

He is clearly simply saying that whatever you do, do it with charity. If an action is done out of true charity, it is a good action for the one who does it. (Note that the exercise of charity implies the operation of the virtue of prudence)

 

[jkiernan56]

This response of yours was in reply to what I said "Can a person do something that “looks virtuous” on the outside, but in reality is it according to the one who knows all things? "

I don’t really understand the second part of the question. It is possible to do something which looks virtuous but is not done out of habit and hence is not virtuous even though it is good.

I was thinking of Peter and Christ three times asking him if he loved Jesus. The third time Peter answer that “you know all things and know that I love you”.

Your explanation of virtue and actions made a lot of sense to me. A good act is not necessarily virtuous. But the intention of our acts are clearly seen and understood by our Lord. What we do and the intentions of our actions are separate realities. You speak of virtue as a repeated good action, but the intention of a good act seems to me extremely important as well in order to grow in virtue. A good act in and of itself (even out of habit) doesn’t mean I have grown in virtue. In order to grow in virture, my intention must be good as well doesn’t it?

Another question you raise for me is what is the connection between virtue and love? Maybe I am just doing mental gymnastics here, but ultimately love is what it is all about - and growing in love leads to Love Itself - Christ (God Incarnate)

 

[Katholish]

In order to grow in virture, my intention must be good as well doesn’t it?

Yes. When I said “good action” there I meant it to imply good intention, which is necessarily for any truly good action.

Another question you raise for me is what is the connection between virtue and love? Maybe I am just doing mental gymnastics here, but ultimately love is what it is all about - and growing in love leads to Love Itself - Christ (God Incarnate)

As I mentioned before, Charity (Love) is necessarily for any of the infused virtues to operate. However, it is possible to have purely natural virtues which are not motivated by love (like the virtues found in pagan Greece and Rome).

 

[donsnow]

I was mulling this question to the thread and as I was tossing it around it brought to mind something St. Augustine said - “Love God and Do What You Will”.

I have come to the conclusion that the truth of the question is in the middle.

Looking at my own life experience, I know I have a long long way to go looking foward to what God is calling me and each one of us to be. But I also know that looking backwards that I have also come a long long way from where I used to be. I know growth in Love (for God, myself, and others) is only because of a personal experience of Gods love (Grace).

If is because of experiencing God’s personal love I am enabled to love (God, myself, and my neighbor) - the answer to the question (am I what I do or is what I do because of who I am?) seems to me to be in the middle.​

If a Sacrament is a visible sign of an invisible reality that confers Grace, and if we truly love God as St. Augustine states, isn’t the latter part his statement (Do What You Will) the visible sign of that invisible reality? (ie - our actions are a reflection of this invisible reality? (ie - we become Sacraments of God’s Love to each other).

We are what we do and we do what we are. God’s Love changes everything.

Hi, Jkiernan56 -

Looks to me, like you answered your own question, at first. Then, after reading the thread to here, I realize you’re probing for information from deeper layers.

After a little reflection, I think we’re both what we do and and we’re also who we are. Jesus says, “As a man thinks in heart, so he is” or words to that effect.

In passing, I don’t know how to answer, when someone asks me “Who are you?”
I can tell you whose I am. I belong to Jesus Christ. But I can’t verbally express who I am.

I do agree, that with charity as the motive, we won’t go wrong. Like you, I am trying to nourish my love for God and my neighbor to grow.

I have learned that I am a sinner and I have chosen to be a repentant sinner. I get a choice of what kind of sinner, you see. After my conversion, at my Confirmation Mass, the Bishop at that time and place touched each cheek of my face and said, “You’re a soldier of Christ.”
These two identifiers I have adopted into my core identity. Enough about me. I have to resume trying to read my English translation to St. Augustine’s City of God*. As well as reading through my CCC. Been out of school since '99 and now I give myself reading assignments*

 

[jkiernan56]

Hi, Jkiernan56 -

Looks to me, like you answered your own question, at first. Then, after reading the thread to here, I realize you’re probing for information from deeper layers.

After a little reflection, I think we’re both what we do and and we’re also who we are. Jesus says, “As a man thinks in heart, so he is” or words to that effect.

In passing, I don’t know how to answer, when someone asks me “Who are you?”
I can tell you whose I am. I belong to Jesus Christ. But I can’t verbally express who I am.

I do agree, that with charity as the motive, we won’t go wrong. Like you, I am trying to nourish my love for God and my neighbor to grow.

I have learned that I am a sinner and I have chosen to be a repentant sinner. I get a choice of what kind of sinner, you see. After my conversion, at my Confirmation Mass, the Bishop at that time and place touched each cheek of my face and said, “You’re a soldier of Christ.”
These two identifiers I have adopted into my core identity. Enough about me. I have to resume trying to read my English translation to St. Augustine’s City of God**. As well as reading through my CCC. Been out of school since '99 and now I give myself reading assignments

More important than who or what I am - is who Christ is. Like you when I had my conversion experience, it was all so simple. But as years went by I lost sight of this. If you keep your focus on Love, you will be heading in the right direction. But then the question becomes - how do I keep my focus on Love? Christ is Love Incarnate. Who He is - is infinitely more important than who or what I am. And what I believe is what I (we) hope to become like one day. I think a sign should be place at the entrance of every Catholic Church that says “sinners welcome” … LOL

 

[donsnow]

More important than who or what I am - is who Christ is. Like you when I had my conversion experience, it was all so simple. But as years went by I lost sight of this. If you keep your focus on Love, you will be heading in the right direction. But then the question becomes - how do I keep my focus on Love? Christ is Love Incarnate. Who He is - is infinitely more important than who or what I am. And what I believe is what I (we) hope to become like one day. I think a sign should be place at the entrance of every Catholic Church that says “sinners welcome” … LOL

Thank you.
So do I.