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Baelor
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Your understanding of the role of scripture in morality and theology is not the Catholic one.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Yes, but then the Church goes and canonizes a mother and pediatrician like St. Gianna Beretta Molla and it just fogs it all up!
This is what the Vatican website says about this magnificent modern saint:
*Gianna Beretta was born in Magenta (Milan) October 4, 1922. Already as a youth she willingly accepted the gift of faith and the clearly Christian education that she received from her excellent parents. As a result, she experienced life as a marvellous gift from God, had a strong faith in Providence and was convinced of the necessity and effectiveness of prayer.
She diligently dedicated herself to studies during the years of her secondary and university education, while, at the same time, applying her faith through generous apostolic service among the youth of Catholic Action and charitable work among the elderly and needy as a member of the St. Vincent de Paul Society. After earning degrees in Medicine and Surgery from the University of Pavia in 1949, she opened a medical clinic in Mesero (near Magenta) in 1950. She specialized in Pediatrics at the University of Milan in 1952 and there after gave special attention to mothers, babies, the elderly and poor.
While working in the field of medicine-which she considered a “mission” and practiced as such-she increased her generous service to Catholic Action, especially among the “very young” and, at the same time, expressed her joie de vivre and love of creation through skiing and mountaineering. Through her prayers and those of others, she reflected upon her vocation, which she also considered a gift from God. Having chosen the vocation of marriage, she embraced it with complete enthusiasm and wholly dedicated herself “to forming a truly Christian family”.
She became engaged to Pietro Molla and was radiant with joy and happiness during the time of their engagement, for which she thanked and praised the Lord. They were married on September 24, 1955, in the Basilica of St. Martin in Magenta, and she became a happy wife. In November 1956, to her great joy, she became the mother of Pierluigi, in December 1957 of Mariolina; in July 1959 of Laura. With simplicity and equilibrium she harmonized the demands of mother, wife, doctor and her passion for life.
In September 1961 towards the end of the second month of pregnancy, she was touched by suffering and the mystery of pain; she had developed a fibroma in her uterus. Before the required surgical operation, and conscious of the risk that her continued pregnancy brought, she pleaded with the surgeon to save the life of the child she was carrying, and entrusted herself to prayer and Providence. The life was saved, for which she thanked the Lord. She spent the seven months remaining until the birth of the child in incomparable strength of spirit and unrelenting dedication to her tasks as mother and doctor. She worried that the baby in her womb might be born in pain, and she asked God to prevent that.
A few days before the child was due, although trusting as always in Providence, she was ready to give her life in order to save that of her child: “If you must decided between me and the child, do not hesitate: choose the child - I insist on it. Save him”. On the morning of April 21, 1962, Gianna Emanuela was born. Despite all efforts and treatments to save both of them, on the morning of April 28, amid unspeakable pain and after repeated exclamations of “Jesus, I love you. Jesus, I love you», the mother died. She was 39 years old. Her funeral was an occasion of profound grief, faith and prayer. The Servant of God lies in the cemetery of Mesero (4 km from Magenta).
“Conscious immolation», was the phrase used by Pope Paul VI to define the act of Blessed Gianna, remembering her at the Sunday Angelus of September 23, 1973, as: “A young mother from the diocese of Milan, who, to give life to her daughter, sacrificed her own, with conscious immolation”. The Holy Father in these words clearly refers to Christ on Calvary and in the Eucharist.
Gianna was beatified by Pope John Paul II on April 24, 1994, during the international Year of the Family.*
In the things that are important, friends, it is not men who are strong or women who are strong, but those who put themselves in the hands of God who are strong.
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Mickey
Guest
And I get so sick of seeing people overreact like this.
Radical feminism has been eroding the morals of the faithful for decades. They have seeped into every nook and cranny. Those posing as nuns have de-catechized the people and brought them to the edge of a new age abyss. Thankfully, there seems to be a core group of traditional-minded Catholics who resist such nonsense…and now the Vatican has publically recognized this scourge.
Thanks be to God.
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Mickey
Guest
And I get so sick of this kind of overreaction.
It is a known fact that Radical feminism has been eroding the morals of the faithful and makeing inroads to the Church for decades. Those who have been posing as Catholic nuns have been de-catechizing the faithful and attempting to bring the Church to the edge of the new age abyss. Thank God there is a core group of tradition-minded faithful who have resisted such nonsense. And now the Vatican has pubically recognized the problem.
Thanks be to God.
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Baelor
Guest
I am not a Traditionalist, have never been associated with a traditional community, and have never run into any New Age practices in any Catholic setting whatsoever at any parish I have attended in any city, country, and continent in which I have lived.
In other words, the overreaction comes from your seeing shadows in completely illuminated rooms. Get your eyesight checked.
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Mickey
Guest
On the contrary…he displays a Scriptural and Patristic view.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, then, I guess I ought not hold my breath for you to ease up with the shovel then, should I?
Some of us who are getting really really tired of being thrown into that same group at the drop of the hat, even though we’ve never “de-catechized” anybody or done a liturgical dance or pouted because women can’t be ordained or any of that rot…only to turn around a be made out to be on the other extreme by them!
Rash judgement hurts. Thanks alot, that’s all I’m saying.
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EasterJoy
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…and everybody on each far end of the fight is confident they alone are “doing God’s work” and praying for the Holy Spirit to come in and sweep it all clean.
Yep…time to take my lumps and quit hitting my head against this wall.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Baelor,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.
As regards your remark above, dear friend, I think that you are mistaken, as my many posts on these boards would evince most plainly, especially my dialogue with a learned Protestant in the thread, ‘Not the same God’ (Non-Catholic Religions). People will observe from that thread that I do not subscribe to sola scriptura or to an un-Catholic role of Sacred Scripture.
You have yet to adduce evidence of where our Church has officially pronounced the commonly received understanding of Titus 2: 5 (“workers at home”) to be invalid and irrelevant in the contemporary Church. The Church, as your are aware, dear brother, has only officially interpreted a few passages of Sacred Scripture and leaves the matter entirely to individual Catholics, with the proviso that they do not elucidate it in a manner that is contrary to the official and authoritative teaching of Holy Mother Church. Indeed, our Catechism indicates for the bible reader the criteria and senses for interpreting the Sacred Scriptures (paras. 112-118) and arriving at a correct interpetation. Moreover, if we know and believe the teachings of the Church we will interpret God’s most holy word as the Church does. True, Catholicism may not be ‘a religion of the book’, but it most certainly believes that “The inspired books teach the truth” and so “all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit”. Moreover, “we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures” (CCC, para. 107). That my, dear friend, includes that ‘awkard’ text Titus 2: 5.
Now in passage such as Titus 2: 4,5 it is manifestly obvious that we are to interpret it in the literal sense, because it occurs within the context of a practical instruction for members of the church. Thus just as St. Paul requires the “young women” to “love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, kind, and submissive to their husbands” - all of which remain applicable today - so he requires women to be “workers at home”, which likewise remains applicable. It is incumbent upon modern Catholic women to strive to meet all of these requirements, which remain valid, including being “workers at home”, if they are wives and mothers. We are not at liberty to cherry pick which parts of Sacred Scripture appeal to us and ignore or explain away the parts which do not sqaure with our avant garde ideology. That dear brother, is not how authentic Catholicism works. Please explain why you think we should disregard the clause, “workers at home”, but accept the rest of the passage? We must needs be extremely careful that we do not reject passages from God’s word, simply because they do not fit in with either modern thinking or because they are at variance with our biased pre-conceived theological framework - a error of liberalism.
The Church has always taught in its tradition that married women should dovote themselves exclusively to be being wives and mothers. It is only with the advent of godless radical feminism in the 1960’s that this consistently held view has been challenged as demeaning to women and as something that frustrates them from realizing their full potential. However, as Catholics we must not assimilate the spirit of the age and its warped thinking, rather we must provide a robust Christian culture that dares to be different and dares to stand alone - “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect” (Rom. 12: 1, emphasis mine).
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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LucyLight
Guest
You have a great point about both extremes being so confident that they are doing God’s work. When we are so confident we lack humilily and stop learning. To the last part I’ve learned the hard way. Some posters do not want to have a discussion. They already have the answers. You could write a thoughtful, reasoned post only to realize that they aren’t reading any of it. It’s hard to call someone a troll who has a zillion posts but they can still act in the same manner. Threads are suppossed to be discussions. When posters derail threads by turning them into their own soapboxes its rude to all the other posters and only turns people off to their arguments.
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mini_me640
Guest
I don’t see how the call to be workers at home and submissive to husbands means that a wife is prohibited from also working outside the home. The Proverbs 31 woman makes and sells goods (which would seem to qualify as outside work) as well as taking care of her family. Of course, family must be a much higher priority than a job. However, in the current economy, many wives MUST earn income in order for their family to survive.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear PRmerger,Greetings, Portrait! Long time no see!
I don’t mean to provoke, but your comment above prompted a question: do you not seek the services of any married professional women? That is, do you make a point to not have a married female physician? If you send your children to school (vs homeschooling), would you require that their teachers be single women? (Or, of course, male of unknown marital status).
And not to get too farcical, but this is an honest question: if you’re in line at the grocery store do you seek to find a male cashier or a single female cashier in order to not promote the idea that you believe any married woman who’s working has not contradicted the Scriptures. (Sorry for the double negative.)
I ask because I wonder how, in today’s society, you can profess the above and attempt to live it.
It would seem impossible to me, but perhaps you have found a way to do so?
Cordial greetings and what a pleasant surprise, my dear sister. Jolly good to see you again and hope you are keeping well. If someone can verify my Catholic credentials, then you certainly can in view of that debate we had with that Protestant chap (‘Not the same God’)!!
The role of married women devoting themselves exclusively to the role of motherhood is, of course, the direction of St. Paul in Sacred Scripture, which our pagan society does not by and large observe. Thus one cannot by the very nature of the prevailing culture expect non-Catholic women to submit themselves to this requirement, no more than you can expect fallen men and women to submit themselves to the teaching of Sacred Scripture, proscribing against homosexual deviant acts. Therefore in view of this, dear sister, there is very little I can do regarding married mothers who work as cashiers in banks, school teachers, sales assistants in department stores, or any other occupation. Certainly I think it is wrong and that they should relinquish their positions to look after their husbands and families full-time, but they have probably been too brainwashed by radical femenist ideology to suddenly embrace the biblical and Catholic paradigm. You would be better off concentrating your efforts on evangelising them first and getting them to submit to the claims of Christ and His Church. Therefore so long as we live and move and have our being in this fallen world, we have no option but to accept the status quo, even if we profoundly disagree with it and think it contrary to the divine providential order of things.
We may not be able to effect sudden radical change, but as Catholics we can choose to live differently and in accord with Scripture and the tradition of the Church. Our neighbours will at least see that we do not follow the multitude and it gives us a jolly good opportunity to witness to them as to why we have chosen to follow a different path. This was the case in my own domestic situation, when my wife and I were bringing up our child. My wife is a very intelligent and capable woman and could have had a lucrative and rewarding position had she so desired, but she made the choice to gratefully and exclusively receive the divinely ordained role of motherhood. Indeed, it is by humbly accepting her proper sphere that a woman fulfills her true destiny, but, alas, radical feminism has convinced so many woman that that is the language of ‘sexisim’ and many women receive it uncritically as such.
God bless you and nice to see you on the boards again, dear sister.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Mickey
Guest
My experience was opposite. And it seems that the Vatican has found quite a bit of hanky panky also.
You can stay in denial…but the shadows are very real… Be watchful.
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mini_me640
Guest
Or they need income to survive…
Some men don’t make enough for a family to live on, not to mention that husbands get injured, laid off, etc. which means they are unable to earn at least for a time. Sometimes caring for your family as a wife and mom can mean financial contribution as well.The Catholic Church itself employs married women in various roles - are they wrong to do so?
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Mickey
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I do not recall anyone accusing you of such praxis.
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Mickey
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I find it interesting that you label traditional and conservative pastristic-minded Catholics…as being on the “far end.”
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Baelor
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That is not a claim that I need to make. It has not been established on this thread, or anywhere, for that matter, given that the claim in question is false, that the Church espouses a literal view of scripture in all circumstances and as an explicit practice takes individual statements from the Bible and turns them into prescriptive statements applicable to all peoples in all aeons.
I do not need to “adduce evidence” on this issue because your statement is based on a false premise.
It remains that the Church does not morally prohibit women from working outside the home though they be current mothers.
That is totally false. The CCC is a testament to how absurd your claim is.
Furthermore, the Church does not simply leave issues of morality like this up to individual Catholics; q.v. the entirety of the CCC.
Let us consider the CCC’s actual teachings. We see in no. 110 that
Certainly relevant here.
Although the literal sense is mentioned here, it is not clear – as you claim with no evidence – that the words listed in St. Paul’s letters ought to be taken as morally binding forever and ever. The Church does not explicitly espouse this position. Your counterargument is that the Church need not expound on something so obvious. This fails on two grounds: 1) This issue is of great importance because it determines the makeup and functioning of society for all eternity, and 2) It is clear that there is disagreement among the faithful on the morality involved. Thus, the fact that the Church has not spoken on is certainly justified as evidence that there is no moral issue here.
No, it does not. The Church does not invariably take isolated statements from Scripture, as you suggest, and make them into moral imperative.
Not true; cf. no. 110 of the CCC. Furthermore, your definition of “keepers at home” is an interpretation of St. Paul’s words, not reality. In addition, the passage uses “women” synonymously with “wives,” something that the Catholic Church does not recognize as a valid equivocation.
That is a false equivalent. The fact that other aspects of his orders remain in force does not mean that all need to. See above for additional problems.
See above for my answer.
Show us.
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Baelor
Guest
Hence your provincialism through projection, which was exactly my point.
No one is doubting that shadows are real. One may reasonably doubt their presence in a perfectly illuminated room. One may also decide that upholding the Truth regardless of who opposes it solves the issue entirely.
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Mickey
Guest
Confidence in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ breeds true humility and an endless zeal for prayer and learning. May we all acquire this confidence.
I think it is rather sad to see so many references to “trolls” or “sola Scriptura protestants” being hurled at those posters who might disagree with a particular view. It is not a very good discussion tactic.
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Mickey
Guest
LOL! And I suppose the Vatican is practicing provincialism through projection also.
Indeed.
Have you ever read about the lives of the saints who thought they were in a perfectly illuminated room only to discover it was a trick of the devil (appearing as an angel of light).
The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force…
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