Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[AngryAtheist8]

To be properly understood, one must be aware that the sacrament of marriage is a type of the relationship between Christ and the Church. Here is St Paul in his own words about the relationship of husband and wife toward one another and of the relationship of Christ with the Church.

From Ephesians 5:

21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.

23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.

24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her

26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,

27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
**
28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,**

30 because we are members of his body.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

 People tend to focus on the bible teaching that women are to be treated like cattle by their husbands.  What I have outlined above shows that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.  Christ handed himself over as a sacrifice for the church.

 This defines the proper role of the man in a marriage.  He should love his wife to the point of giving his life for her.

 Another point, How is the Church subordinate to Christ?  It is not by a list of Ten Commandments since Christ did not come to give the law but to fulfill it.  The Church is instead to love Christ with all of its being and to accept his grace in order to give it strength.  This is how the Church is subordinate to Christ, who loves the Church with everything in His being.  The married relationship is to be analogous to this.

God Bless,

Jack Handy

Point 24 has always sounded like a master/slave relationship to me.
Because the Church is supposed to always obey Christ, and if the Church and Christ disagree, the Church is wrong by definition.

 

[LucyLight]

To be properly understood, one must be aware that the sacrament of marriage is a type of the relationship between Christ and the Church. Here is St Paul in his own words about the relationship of husband and wife toward one another and of the relationship of Christ with the Church.

From Ephesians 5:

21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.

23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.

24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her

26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word,

27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
**
28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,**

30 because we are members of his body.

31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

 People tend to focus on the bible teaching that women are to be treated like cattle by their husbands.  What I have outlined above shows that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.  Christ handed himself over as a sacrifice for the church.

 This defines the proper role of the man in a marriage.  He should love his wife to the point of giving his life for her.

 Another point, How is the Church subordinate to Christ?  It is not by a list of Ten Commandments since Christ did not come to give the law but to fulfill it.  The Church is instead to love Christ with all of its being and to accept his grace in order to give it strength.  This is how the Church is subordinate to Christ, who loves the Church with everything in His being.  The married relationship is to be analogous to this.

God Bless,

Jack Handy

But the analogy does have its limits. JPII said this regarding the relationship between Christ/Church and Husband/Wife

“However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the
Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between
husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.”

JOHN PAUL II ON THE
DIGNITY AND VOCATION
OF WOMEN

 

[nordskoven]

Jesus Christ was “subject” to His parents, the Blessed Virgin Mary and Joseph.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8

Do you have ANYTHING to support any of your claims other than your own interpretation of Scripture and (Catholic) Church teachings?

So you found a misogynistic Pope who made statements that support your position of meaningless equality (with men) for women.

So what?

Do his words overrule more recent official Church documents such as Pope John Paul II’s Letter to Women?

If not, your argument is built on less than sand.

Moreover I think you misunderstand who or what you’re debating.
If you can definitely prove that the Church is anti-women’s rights that will not change my mind about women or Feminism. It will merely make me think less of the Catholic Church.

Dear AngryAtheist,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

That you dismiss Pope Pius XI as “misogynistic Pope”, only reveals your very obvious bias, dear friend, and does not mean that it is an unassailable fact.

His encylical forms part of the Ordinary Magisterium and is infallible teaching that is to be received by the faithful.

The teaching of this encyclical is not at variance with the ‘A Letter to Women’ by H.H.JPII, if that latter is understood correctly. The Church has not and cannot rescind the encyclical of Pope Pius XI as it is a part of the Sacred Tradition. Many modern day Catholics may choose to ignore it as irrelevant, or insist that that it is ‘timebound’, but that is merely their opinion, probably based upon the fact that it does not square with their avant garde theories. Sadly, you can often hear contemporary Catholics say such things as “Well, I prefer to listen to Pope John Paul as he is my favourite Pope of all time and he had such wisdom”. That is not how a Catholic should think and reveals a sort of *a *la carte approach to the Faith, where one conveniently ignores the encylicals, Apostolic Letters etc, that one happens to profoundly disagrees with.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear friend, and do enjoy the rest your day. I will respond to your other posts tommorow.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

First of all, even the modern day Catholic Church admits that a lot of Church Fathers and other priests were prejudiced against women (although the Church claims that that never reflected the true teachings of the Church). So the idea that one (or even many) Pope(s) hated women is hardly incompatible with Catholic doctrine.

Even the Church doesn’t claim that the Popes were perfect.
Moreover, considering the number of popes that there have been, and the popularity of misogynistic ideas and attitudes throughout history, its likely that quite a few popes hated women:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Dear AngryAtheist,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

That you dismiss Pope Pius XI as “misogynistic Pope”, only reveals your very obvious bias, dear friend, and does not mean that it is an unassailable fact.

His encylical forms part of the Ordinary Magisterium and is infallible teaching that is to be received by the faithful.

The teaching of this encyclical is not at variance with the ‘A Letter to Women’ by H.H.JPII, if that latter is understood correctly. The Church has not and cannot rescind the encyclical of Pope Pius XI as it is a part of the Sacred Tradition. Many modern day Catholics may choose to ignore it as irrelevant, or insist that that it is ‘timebound’, but that is merely their opinion, probably based upon the fact that it does not square with their avant garde theories. Sadly, you can often hear contemporary Catholics say such things as “Well, I prefer to listen to Pope John Paul as he is my favourite Pope of all time and he had such wisdom”. That is not how a Catholic should think and reveals a sort of *a *la carte approach to the Faith, where one conveniently ignores the encylicals, Apostolic Letters etc, that one happens to profoundly disagrees with.

God bless and goodbye for now, dear friend, and do enjoy the rest your day. I will respond to your other posts tommorow.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax:tiphat:

Indeed, and perhaps at that point you could finally answer this question:

Assuming all women married and became homemakers (which seems to be your ideal) would there be any point in educating them?

After all, if women were kept ignorant and illiterate, they would be easier to control and relegate to the domestic sphere. Something that groups like the Taliban in Afghanistan recognize and act on.

 

[LucyLight]

 People tend to focus on the bible teaching that women are to be treated like cattle by their husbands.  What I have outlined above shows that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church.  Christ handed himself over as a sacrifice for the church.

 This defines the proper role of the man in a marriage.  He should love his wife to the point of giving his life for her.

 Another point, How is the Church subordinate to Christ?  It is not by a list of Ten Commandments since Christ did not come to give the law but to fulfill it.  The Church is instead to love Christ with all of its being and to accept his grace in order to give it strength.  This is how the Church is subordinate to Christ, who loves the Church with everything in His being.  The married relationship is to be analogous to this.

God Bless,

Jack Handy

So you agree that the verse sound’s like women are to be treated like chattel (I think that’s what you meant)? I would agree with that.

However, when you are describing a married relationship and you say that wives are subject to the husband and then say but the husband has to love the wife a lot and sacrifice for her it still does not balance things at all. It treats the wife as a child and the husband as the parent. Just because the husband is asked to sacrifice himself for his wife does not justify subjecting his wife and treating her as his subordinate. Now if the subjection is mutual and one is not placed above the other than no one is degraded.

 

[itullian]

men and women are equal, they’re just not the same. each have their roles and contributions to make.
God bless the fairer sex.

Vive la difference!

(gosh, is that politically incorrect now? )

 

[Matilda_Bennett]

This thread is now closed. Thank you to all who contributed to the discussion.