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Chicago_Bears
Guest
Do you see any difference? Would you let a repentant child murderer watch your child? How about a repentant woman who had an abortion?
Are women who have had an abortion the same as any other child murder?
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Awful_Things
Guest
I’m not sure if there is a difference in the gravity of the sins. There may be differences (either way) in the culpability, depending on the level of consent and knowledge. However, there is a practical difference in the act as it pertains to the scenario of baby-sitting. Both are repentant, which is great. Typically, though, women who have abortions are doing so because of a lax morality or an unformed conscience, not because of a murderous impulse. The murderer, however, is repentant but may very well have a recurrance of his tendencies (as even the best of us repentant sinners often do), and wouldn’t be around my kids unsupervised. I think it would be a stretch to say that a woman who aborted would then kill a born child. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that an individual already proven capable of that might do it again.
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captbackfire
Guest
No, they are not, at least according to the law.
And anyone can choose with great care the people they allow to care for their children in their absence. If you are uncomfortable allowing a woman who has had an abortion caring for your kids, then don’t. This is my opinion.
capt
And anyone can choose with great care the people they allow to care for their children in their absence. If you are uncomfortable allowing a woman who has had an abortion caring for your kids, then don’t. This is my opinion.
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survive
Guest
It depends. Picture a young man, 18 but still living with his parents. He has a newborn by his first girlfriend. Due to schedule issues he’s still never seen the child in full light or heard her cry, and his father says over and over that this child iss going to ruin his life and that she’s better off dead. After a few weeks of browbeating, he’s confused and scared. He calls his girlfriend to come home from an out-of-town job to get the baby quickly but she can’t. At the last minute, he lets his father take the child to be put down as pets are, supposedly for her own good. He suddenly realizes what he’s just done, repents and wishes desperately he could go back in time and save the baby. He would be a child murderer, but not in the way a homicidal maniac is.
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LeroyCRHP
Guest
Remember there is a man just as involved as the woman in every abortion. With 50 million abortions over the past 50 years this has directly touched a lot of people.
To answer your question, I would be ok with either as long as they were truely repentant (and I would be interested in other human patterns)
To answer your question, I would be ok with either as long as they were truely repentant (and I would be interested in other human patterns)
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captbackfire
Guest
This young man has a newborn by his “first girlfriend”. Are you insinuating that he has moved on to another girlfriend, or that this young woman is the first with whom he has had a sexual relationship?
It makes a difference. If he has picked up another girlfriend, that would create a gut instinct in the young woman, perhaps bringing her to the conclusion that his intentions were contaminated from the beginning, that he was too immature to assume the responsibilities of parenting, and she could then take legal steps to prevent him or anyone from coming near the baby.
What is the girlfriend doing on an out-of-town job a few weeks after giving birth?? A woman who could do this would more than likely choose to abort her child rather than give birth and hand it over to her boyfriend so she could go back to work.
How would the father have the infant “put down”? Does that mean he enlists the assistance of someone, or does he do this himself, and by what means?
This whole scenario is so fear-based and irrational and just plain outrageous that it defies problem-solving. We need not create fantastic vignettes over which to wring our hands; life is complex enough. Yes, it is true that newborns suffer at the hands of parents unprepared to care for them. Even under the best of circumstances an infant will push to the absolute breaking point a relationship, a marriage. We cannot control the behavior of other people. Laws cannot keep people from breaking laws. Some people are utterly without conscience and maturity.
What do you propose, survive? What should happen to the mother? The father? The father of the father? The person who may assist in the death of the infant?
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turtle18
Guest
Abortion is murder. A woman is not any less cupable of committing a serious sin because she is a woman. One of the great lies of the pro-choice movement is that somehow women are less responsible for their actions & bodies because they are women.
Also, in most cases, there are other sins which lead to to an abortion. Although some aborted babies are conceived in the marital embrace, many of them are conceived outside of the marriage bond. Despite what previous posters have stated, most women know abortion is murder and chose to do it anyway out of selfishness.
Also, in most cases, there are other sins which lead to to an abortion. Although some aborted babies are conceived in the marital embrace, many of them are conceived outside of the marriage bond. Despite what previous posters have stated, most women know abortion is murder and chose to do it anyway out of selfishness.
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Awful_Things
Guest
Now wait a second, Turtle, you are misrepresenting previous posters, myself included. Nobody has said that abortion is a lesser sin than murdering a born child. In fact, the first line of my post indicates that I don’t see a difference in gravity, unless there are issue (for either individual) of insufficient knowledge or consent. However, the point I and others made is that they are different types of murder and, in my opinion, a woman who commits abortion would not logically also have the tendency, simply because of that act, of strangling a two-year-old. If she were unrepentent, perhaps, but not generally. You may disagree with me on that, but let’s be careful about suggesing that “previous posters” take abortion lightly and do not consider it murder. To use an analogy, if one man does some fancy paperwork and cheats on his taxes to the gain of a couple thousand dollars, his sin is probably on the same level as a man who sneaks into a house and takes a couple thousand dollars worth of jewelry. However, this doesn’t mean that he is capable of the specific actions required to be a cat burglar.
Both men, hopefully, repent, but even after this, I would be especially careful in my business dealings the first man and with my wife’s jewelry in the case of the second.
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captbackfire
Guest
A woman is not any less culpable for committing a serious sin because she is a woman. Women who subscribe to the pro-choice movement (at least, first- and second-wave feminism) absolutely DO NOT believe that they are less responsible for their actions and bodies because they are women. The pro-choice women I know, including myself, do not believe that abortion is “murder”. We are responsible for our actions. We (those of us who believe in God) will face our maker. He will determine punishment due. Those who grieve will begin their suffering for their actions before, during and after their abortions. Some will not grieve at all, contrary to popular religious belief.
No human being can identify selfishness as the sole cause for a woman choosing abortion because no one other than that woman and God can know what is in her heart.
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RosaryFan
Guest
I consider women who have had an abortion to be victims as much as her unborn child. In most cases, she is “talked into” the abortion by the “all-knowing” doctor upon whom she is completely relying. She is scared (like a deer caught in the headlights), desperate (like the trapped animal who gnaws off its own foot to escape) and the “doctors” are very persuasive, not to mention money-hungry - lest we forget the abortion industry is a $$$$ booming one where, like any other industry, it is in their best interest (not that of the mother) to gain as many customers as possible.
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survive
Guest
It’s an analogy. I had no intention of suggesting the world is full of young men who might put down their infants because their girlfriends walked away. I was showing the male equivalent of abortion. It’s a single parent, ill-prepared and under pressure to somehow “undo” the creation of an existing child, urged by loved and trusted people into treating the death of the child as the normal outcome of a stressful situation, like a young woman who is taught that abortion is an ordinary option in pregnancy. I was showing why someone who commits infanticide/abortion under such conditions is probably not a psychopath or a rage-filled homicidal maniac, and therefore is probably safe around other people’s children after coming to terms with the wrongness of the murder of the child he or she ahs given to someone to kill.
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RosaryFan
Guest
I would like to add, as unfortunate as this is, I happen to know some women who have had abortions. I would see no reason not to trust them with my child. Most women, after making that horribly wrong and obviously troubling decision, do regret it - whether or not they admit it.
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siamesecat
Guest
While the end result is technically the same, it’s obvious that 95% of the people who commit these acts are completely different. Most women who have abortions are good people who are afraid and who do not see a fetus as a child, and who do not think there is anything wrong with what they are doing. Many of them will go on to have kids and be wonderful moms. Many love kids. They simply are panicked and many were raised in environments in which fetuses are simply not considered children. Someone who murders a child knows it’s a child, has presumably bonded and seen the child and lived with it, unlike a woman who has no relationship with her fetus and can easily rationalize it away as a parasite. It takes a lot more malice and emotional detachment to kill a child you know. Often women who have abortions are thinking about how miserable the baby’s life will be as well if they have it…women who kil children are thinking only of improving their own life. That being said, some women who have abortions are just irresponsible people who could care less about life. And some women who kill their children are good people in a complete panic who make a terrible mistake. But generally, I think there is a big difference. And I don’t see how anyone could disagree, as most must know women who are good people who have aborted.
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neat62
Guest
Abortion continues. As I have said before, abortion is not seen as murder. (even by Catholics) If it were, we would have ended it a long time ago. And if it is not murder, then there is no need for God’s mercy.
Abortion continues because people make the distinction. Babies die by the millions, because people, in their heart of hearts, do not believe that abortion is really murder. In this nation, would we sit back while 4000 born, alive, innocent people are murdered everyday by their parents? Would we sit back if some rouge fanatic group came into our neighborhood and started murdering school kids?
Yet we sit back while unborn babies are slaughtered everyday.
Logic tells me that the overwhelming magority of people in the US, do not believe that abortion is murder.
Abortion will continue. This thread backs up my claims. Way too much sympathy is given to the killers of their children here. And because of that, abortion will continue.
Abortion continues because people make the distinction. Babies die by the millions, because people, in their heart of hearts, do not believe that abortion is really murder. In this nation, would we sit back while 4000 born, alive, innocent people are murdered everyday by their parents? Would we sit back if some rouge fanatic group came into our neighborhood and started murdering school kids?
Yet we sit back while unborn babies are slaughtered everyday.
Logic tells me that the overwhelming magority of people in the US, do not believe that abortion is murder.
Abortion will continue. This thread backs up my claims. Way too much sympathy is given to the killers of their children here. And because of that, abortion will continue.
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Gardenman
Guest
My answer to the specic question of this thread is: YES…and that pertains to women who have had MULTIPLE abortions. There are a lot of women who use abortion as a form of birth control…because they’re either too lazy to prevent the pregnancies in the first place, OR they just have no regard for the sanctity of sex, or BOTH.
This is the year 2009…this is America…there is NO excuse for a reasonably educated woman getting pregnant by chance if she’s paying attention to the available forms of contraception and the kind of men she is sleeping with and has no will power. (Rape excluded) It isn’t like we are living in some backwards 3rd world country. It’s called RESPONSIBILITY. You have sex, you know the consequences.
I would NOT let a woman I know who has had multiple abortions be anywhere NEAR my children. and I definitely would not leave them alone with her.
Am I being judgemental? You BET I am…and I would owe it to my children to not allow them to be around someone like that, unsupervised. Clearly any woman who has had multiple abortions has no regard for innocent children so I am obligated to protect my own from someone like her. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
One abortion is bad enough…when are people (men AND women) going to start being more responsible and respect human life?
The vast majority of abortions done in this country today are being done out of selfishness, laziness and convenience…and don’t try to tell me this isn’t true.
This is the year 2009…this is America…there is NO excuse for a reasonably educated woman getting pregnant by chance if she’s paying attention to the available forms of contraception and the kind of men she is sleeping with and has no will power. (Rape excluded) It isn’t like we are living in some backwards 3rd world country. It’s called RESPONSIBILITY. You have sex, you know the consequences.
I would NOT let a woman I know who has had multiple abortions be anywhere NEAR my children. and I definitely would not leave them alone with her.
Am I being judgemental? You BET I am…and I would owe it to my children to not allow them to be around someone like that, unsupervised. Clearly any woman who has had multiple abortions has no regard for innocent children so I am obligated to protect my own from someone like her. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
One abortion is bad enough…when are people (men AND women) going to start being more responsible and respect human life?
The vast majority of abortions done in this country today are being done out of selfishness, laziness and convenience…and don’t try to tell me this isn’t true.
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neat62
Guest
Some interesting facts on abortion:
• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.[7]
• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**
• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]
• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.[3]
• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[7]
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
The two in bold I find particularly interesting.
• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.[7]
• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**
• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]
• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.[3]
• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[7]
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
The two in bold I find particularly interesting.
- 37% from black women is interesting becaues they are less than 14% of the population. Probably close to 8 or 9% are having the most. We need to work on them the most, I think
- 27% are Catholics?
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TamM
Guest
I have to say Gardenman, that the one person I know who uses abortion as birth control is the one woman I know who I won’t even let in my house (due to her other moral qualities) let alone let her be near my children. I think the big question here is can women who have had abortions be saved? I think so, but it’s a much longer road to salvation for these women than for women who had abortions to say, prevent their own death or out of coercion from parents as young girls in a different decade.
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JimG
Guest
That’s true, and abortion is one sin which inevitably involves one or more accomplices. I also suspect that there would be far fewer abortions had not men by the millions forfeited their role of protector. Rather than offering protection, they have offered abandonment. The same can be said in many cases of parents, grandparents, friends, and supposedly responsible adults. And abandonment leads to abortion.
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Awful_Things
Guest
Does this take into account that the OP specified a “repentent” woman who had had an abortion. It seems you are describing a completely different woman than intended in the scenario.
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Chicago_Bears
Guest
Not true.
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