Are you 100% sure that you will go to Heaven?

[jmcrae]

Now, for those who are “sure” that their faith will never fail, I ask them to remember Peter’s bold declaration at the Last Supper that he would never deny Jesus and yet he did 3 times before the dawn had come.

Good point. None of us knows how we will behave under stress until we are actually there.

I remember the guy who tried to get me into the “once saved always saved” stuff; he was one of those “trophy converts” who came out of a life of homelessness and drug addiction. Well, the minute he got a paying job and a wife, he left his religion and became an atheist.

Today, he says that religion is a good crutch for getting out of a bad lifestyle, but you can’t stay in that mode forever; at some point, you have to “move on with your life.”

 

[Indyann]

Phillipians 2:12

If salvation is assured, why would it be necessary to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”?

 

[heisenburg]

the very idea of “well they were never true Christians to begin with” creates a pretty big problem for OSAS.

If they tested themselves at one point against scripture, and they were shown to be Christian, then they should always from that point forward be able to test them selves…

But there is a problem… Countless people over the years have tested at one point true, but later false… However, the bible says we CAN test ourselves…

If they tested true once, and OSAS is true, they should ALWAYS be able to prove themselves true…

If you respond with “Well, because they weren’t true Christians, that we incapable of truly testing themselves” this flies in the face of scripture because scripture doesn’t say you can only test truthfully if you are a Christian… it says simply you can test…

So…

If someone can test truthfully as true, and then later in life test false… then this means one of two things…

1. The bible is false because if OSAS is true, then they should always be able to test true, once they honestly test true once, but since people test false, this would have to mean we CAN’T test ourselves
2. OSAS is false because people DO honestly test true, and then later false… something that should be impossible according to OSAS, but fully in line with scripture.

OSAS and Scripture are Mutually exclusive… They cannot both be true
…

As a note…

Saying that Paul was just concerned with loosing favor with his apostles is bogus… If he was so concerned, why would he rebuke Peter in Galatians…

Where on Earth does scripture EVER indicate that Paul was concerned about what other people thought over Christ…

furthermore… If JESUS himself appointed him an apostle, who on Earth could take the title away…

Keep in mind… if he was a OSAS Christian, according to your own theology, such a situation is impossible…

I mean no disrespect… but this sounds more like saying “By you saying no, you really mean yes…”

In Christ

 

[heisenburg]

TO add a point though…

There is nothing wrong scripturally with being able to be assured of our salvation… however, this assurance ONLY applies to right now…

It says nothing about tomorrow…

Just like I can be assured I am typing on my computer right now does not mean I can be assured that I will be typing on it in 12 hours…

So yes… we can be sure… but only about right now…

And thus this is why Paul says we must run the race to the end…

In Christ

 

[mchale]

That’s because Peter was being arrogant and boastful. We are not doing that. We are simply standing on the promises in scripture, which come a great deal from the man whose teachings you want to get off of. Besides, intellectual about your faith is damaging. That is why we take it on the faith God has graciously given us.

On the contrary reteeks, I do not want to get off of the teachings of Paul, what I want is to get off of the debate over whether Paul was or was not sure of his salvation. We aren’t Paul, and we can no more know what was in his heart than I can know what is in yours. I do however believe that too often Paul is taken out of context; ignoring the totality of the Gospel message and focusing purely on the need for faith. Without doubt faith is the most essential ingredient, like flower is to bread, but without the rest of the ingredients, you don’t end up with bread.

I do note however, that you completely failed to address the point I actually made to focus on the meditation I suggested. To begin with, maybe Peter was boasting, but I don’t think Peter was making an idle boast; when made the boast, he believed he was willing to put his life on the line. Peter is, I think a great example to all of us that the life of faith is not a single moment. In the sea of Galilee, he was able to walk on water… but then his faith faltered; at the last supper he claimed he would die for Jesus, but his faith faltered again.

Each time, I believe, Peter believed that his faith was strong enough to be put to the test; each time he failed. Yet we are arrogant enough to claim that our faith is strong enough that we are sure of our salvation?

–
Bill

 

[reteeks21]

the very idea of “well they were never true Christians to begin with” creates a pretty big problem for OSAS.

If they tested themselves at one point against scripture, and they were shown to be Christian, then they should always from that point forward be able to test them selves…

But there is a problem… Countless people over the years have tested at one point true, but later false… However, the bible says we CAN test ourselves…

If they tested true once, and OSAS is true, they should ALWAYS be able to prove themselves true…

If you respond with “Well, because they weren’t true Christians, that we incapable of truly testing themselves” this flies in the face of scripture because scripture doesn’t say you can only test truthfully if you are a Christian… it says simply you can test…

So…

If someone can test truthfully as true, and then later in life test false… then this means one of two things…

1. The bible is false because if OSAS is true, then they should always be able to test true, once they honestly test true once, but since people test false, this would have to mean we CAN’T test ourselves
2. OSAS is false because people DO honestly test true, and then later false… something that should be impossible according to OSAS, but fully in line with scripture.

OSAS and Scripture are Mutually exclusive… They cannot both be true
…

As a note…

Saying that Paul was just concerned with loosing favor with his apostles is bogus… If he was so concerned, why would he rebuke Peter in Galatians…

Where on Earth does scripture EVER indicate that Paul was concerned about what other people thought over Christ…

furthermore… If JESUS himself appointed him an apostle, who on Earth could take the title away…

Keep in mind… if he was a OSAS Christian, according to your own theology, such a situation is impossible…

I mean no disrespect… but this sounds more like saying “By you saying no, you really mean yes…”

In Christ

He did not want to do anything that would move him in the direction away from fulfilling him the role that apostle that God gave him. It is not bogus to say that a man who resists and loses his focus can be disciplined for a period of time. Paul wanted to stay in the race so he could continue to carry out his mission. That has nothing to do with salvation. It has everything to do with losing your focus and favor in the position God has called someone to. Much like the priests and ministers who get caught in sex scandals. They suffer for a period of time, but many of them get back into the race.

He rebuked Peter for similar reasons. Peter had gotten off track and Paul set him straight. Yes, even Peter could mess up in his life. Again, if you actually studied the history and translation of that scripture you would see that that word, in its context, references a cognative, present state not an eternal state.

 

[mozart-250]

Actually I recall having read a pretty good article by Jimmy Akin that stated to the effect that most Catholics go to far the other way on this one.

His assertion was that you can know (at least your present status), the only thing being that you can’t know with infallability.

He actually seemed reasonable in the article I read.

Now if I could find it…

 

[heisenburg]

Mozart…

Your actually spot on…

I think too many Lay Catholics take not knowing to the other extreme in response to OSAS absolute. I use to be one of them until I actually learned what the Church teaches…

What Catholics, and nonOSAS protestants need to remember is that we CAN know with pretty good assurance that we are saved (or condemned) Scripture talks repeatedly about testing oneself so you can know…

What confuses people however is what to know means…

Some people think it means once you know it… it will never change…

But this isn’t even a common understanding in normal speech

Most people can easily say I know my car will get me to work…

Bu does this mean that your car will ALWAYS get you to work?

Nope…

but if I changed the oil, has gas, everything is ok… i know, Tomorrow, it will get me to work…

So too with Scripture… WHen it says we can know we are saved… its the same mentality… if I follow His word, have faith, am repentant, and do what is right, I can test myself and KNOW i am saved…

If I dead right now…

But it says absolutely nothing about tomorrow…

Just like i can’t say my car will ALWAYS get me to work…

And thats the differance between Catholic Theology on this and OSAS…

we say I can know with respect to yesterday and today, but not tomorrow

OSAS says you can know with respect to today, yesterday AND tomorrow…

In
Christ

 

[kalt]

That is a very good question. A close examination of the text and the Greek definition for “disqualified” will make it clear that Paul is referring to being disqualified as an apostle. He is making it clear that the Gospel outweighs his own desires, and he does not want to lose his favor or position as apostle because that is just how much he loves God. He does not want to look back and see that he gave up on doing the mission that God had given him.

What is the Greek word used? Have you been studying biblical Greek for a long time? How about a short primer on just this one passage for those of us who don’t speak or read Greek, and certainly don’t read biblical Greek.

 

[kalt]

That’s because Peter was being arrogant and boastful. We are not doing that. We are simply standing on the promises in scripture, which come a great deal from the man whose teachings you want to get off of. Besides, intellectual about your faith is damaging. That is why we take it on the faith God has graciously given us.

Arrogant? Boastful? Don’t you think Peter was as sure of his commitment to Jesus as you are sure of your salvation?
I don’t see anything arrogant in Peter’s words. He was just sure that his commitment to Jesus was strong enough to withstand anything, that he would never deny Christ.

If Peter was sure, but was wrong, how confident are you that you know what you will or won’t do in the future?

 

[kalt]

That is what I thought. But that doesnt mean he didnt have assurance of going to heaven–right? I figure Paul would be the one with the most assurance because He GOT TO SEE HEAVEN:thumbsup:

I think he said somewhere(not sure where in scripture) that he knew that when he died he would be with God but was willing to stay on earth for the sake of spreading the gospel:thumbsup:

"19
7 Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.
20
To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law–though I myself am not under the law–to win over those under the law.
21
To those outside the law I became like one outside the law–though I am not outside God’s law but within the law of Christ–to win over those outside the law.
22
To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.
23
All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
24
8 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.
25
Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
26
Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.
27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. 9 "

I think it’s pretty clear that Paul is talking about salvation, not the priesthood or preaching. His goal was to preach to save (22). He was preaching the Gospel, the good news, which is… . If he were preaching that others should also become preachers, it would make sense that he was afraid of being disqualified as a preacher. But since it’s clear that he was trying to win people over so they could be “saved”, he was saying that he wasn’t sure of his own salvation. That proves that salvation is not guaranteed. It’s a race that isn’t won until the race is over. Paul is clealy saying that we have to persist until the end. Paul knows that salvation isn’t a guarantee. If he was sure of his salvation, he wouldn’t continually drive his body and train, as if the race was still on. He would already have won.

He was telling others that they have to run a good race and persist. Then he goes on to say that he continues to train his own body. If his race was already won, would he continue to train? He tells the others to “run so as to win.” What do you think “to win” means?

BTW, IMO disqualified here means disqualified. When you’re disqualified in a race, you can’t win. There is some kind of violation or irregularity, so you are disqualified. So run so as to win. Run a good race.

Then again, like the rest of you, I’m not a theologian.

Any opinions on my take?

 

[HashemEchad]

If you are, is there anything that you could do that would change that? Murder? Denying Christ? Or something else?

I’m pretty sure I’m going to Heaven. I don’t want to say I’m absolutely certain, only because to me that would be presumptuous, and arrogant. Its one of the things I always disliked about the bornagains, because they seem prideful and lacking in humility when it comes to this most serious subject.

I do not believe a person has to belong to any one religion, as long as they believe in One God, and live good, moral lives in helping people and not hurting anyone.

We are all made in the image and likeness of God. As the Scriptures say, “have we not all One Father?”

 

[paramedicgirl]

There is only ONE sin that can exclude a Christian from the Kingdom of God - and that is telling Jesus:
“Take a hike - I don’t want you in my life”.

All other sins are covered by His sacrifice on Calvary…

Actually it’s blasphemy against the Holy Ghost that cannot be forgiven.

Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I’m pretty sure I’m going to Heaven. I don’t want to say I’m absolutely certain, only because to me that would be presumptuous, and arrogant. Its one of the things I always disliked about the bornagains, because they seem prideful and lacking in humility when it comes to this most serious subject.

**I do not believe a person has to belong to any one religion, as long as they believe in One God, and live good, moral lives in helping people and not hurting anyone.
**
We are all made in the image and likeness of God. As the Scriptures say, “have we not all One Father?”

That’s universalism.

 

[HashemEchad]

That’s universalism.

Its what Judaism teaches, so its fine for me.

I know that I will see my parents again, because they were both good people who did good for others. I don’t have to worry that they might be on fire in hell.

This is a problem I have with (mostly) fundamentalist Christianity: what comfort is it to someone who has converted to Christianity, to have to worry that their loved ones, even if they were upstanding, noble people, are burning for eternity in hell just because their theology didn’t match that of Christianity?

 

[thirdn6]

Yes!!! If, thru the mercy and grace of God Almighty, I can persevere in bearing my cross while following Jesus, if I can remain faithful and sincere, humble and obedient… and not abandon the sacraments of penance or reconciliation and the holy communion- the Eucharist… to remain in the fold of Christ’s flock, the holy Catholic Church.

I will lose my place in heaven by sinning against the Holy Spirit, e.g. cursing anybody, teaching or spreading absolute falsehood to deceive innocent souls (distruction of innocent souls is more grave than commiting murder!),

Be careful. Do not eat of the fruit of the “forbidden tree”. It is deadly and highly contagious.:tsktsk:

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

 

[heisenburg]

And what exactly is blaspheming the holy spirit…

Per the Old Testament (Duet I believe) it is knowingly, and deliberately disobeying God…

Not just making a profession of ‘lack of faith’ as some want to interpret.

I had one OSASer tell me that, once i should him this, he said… Well… Blaspheming was only something you had to worry about in Jesus’s Time… Because of OSAS, those scriptures don’t apply anymore…

In Christ

 

[mchale]

Its what Judaism teaches, so its fine for me.

I know that I will see my parents again, because they were both good people who did good for others. I don’t have to worry that they might be on fire in hell.

Ultimately my position is that I am not 100% sure of my own salvation, so I am certainly not going to judge anyone else’s. I do believe that one can hope though that we will ultimately be reunited with those who have been separated from us by death. I can’t know, but I can trust in God’s mercy.

This is a problem I have with (mostly) fundamentalist Christianity: what comfort is it to someone who has converted to Christianity, to have to worry that their loved ones, even if they were upstanding, noble people, are burning for eternity in hell just because their theology didn’t match that of Christianity?

I am not sure you meant to imply it, but I think it is important to note that the purpose of religion is not to give comfort. Worshiping and loving God is our obligation as his creation. Part of that obligation is a responsibility to the truth. Now I don’t agree with a lot of fundamentalists in sureness that they proclaim, but if what Christians preach is truth, then the comfort it gives or does not give is irrelevant tot he discussion.

–
Bill