Are you a Liberal?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pax_et_Caritas
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You are making my point, which was: We are living in a time of great confusion. It is no longer enough to say “I will simply follow the magisterium”, because the magisterium is not speaking with one voice.
.
You missed the point again. When the Magisterium teaches, it does so as a body, not individually. this is why Lefevbre was incorrect in what he did. He was an individual member of the magisterium, but his decisions were not that of the magisterium. so too with this cardinal
Prayers& blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I want to see the trads and the charismatics square off against each other here. Talk about fireworks.😉
Christ wills unity, not division. Satan, on the other hand, loves this stuff. Catholics engaging in a “virtual stoning” of each other.
 
40.png
DeaconEd:
You missed the point again. When the Magisterium teaches, it does so as a body, not individually. this is why Lefevbre was incorrect in what he did. He was an individual member of the magisterium, but his decisions were not that of the magisterium. so too with this cardinal
I understood your point, but I don’t think you understood mine. I’ll start by restating your point to be sure I understand it: You are saying that a lone voice of a rogue Bishops is not necessarily the voice of the magisterium. You gave the example of the action of Archbishop Lefebvre, who did what the Pope did not want him to do.

But let’s consider how the Pope responded to what Archbishop Lefebvre did. First, a warning was sent telling the Archbishop not to perform the consecrations. Then, when he did it anyway, the Pope issued a document stating that the Archbishop incurred ipso facto excommunication by his action. Therefore, it was very easy to realize that what Archbishop Lefebvre did was not in accord with the Pope’s thinking.

But why would you say that Cardinal Kasper’s teaching was not in union with that of John Paul II? After all, if you read the quote, Kasper is basically spelling out what John Paul II believed. He was not giving his personal opinion, but that of the Pope, which he said “was absolutely clear”. Shouldn’t he know what John Paul II thought? After all, he was appointed as the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, under John Paul II. If anyone would know the Popes thinking on Christian unity it should be him. And Cardinal Kasper also stated that what he was teaching is what Vatican II taught. Here’ a portion of the quote:
Cardinal Kasper: "The decision of Vatican II, to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres and spreads, is absolutely clear: Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of the ecumenism of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘Catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.
What makes you think that did not represent the thinking of John Paul II and the rest of the magisterium? I think it was in perfect agreement with what John Paul II believed. If Cardinal Kasper was a rogue Bishop do you really think John Paul II would have been that derelict in his duty of guarding the faith, so as to leave him in that position? He was, after all, the point man for ecumenism under John Paul II!

When Archbishop Lefebvre did what John Paul II did not want him to do, it was obvious: he was publicly excommunication. Kasper remained in the exalted position. And not one member of the hierarchy ever publicly disagreed with what he said. So why do you think they do?

On what authority do you reject the teaching of Cardinal Kasper? What makes you think his teaching does not represent the thinking of the rest of the magisterium? Do you really think John Paul II would have appointed him to that position and left him in office if his teachings did not reflect that of John Paul II. After all, ecumenism was one of the landmark teachings of John Paul II.

I personally think the statement of Cardinal Kasper is in perfect accord with that of John Paul II, and our new Pope. After all the Bellamand Agreement, which John Paul II accepted, teaches substantially the same thing.
 
In chapter 9 of the book, he describes two kinds of Liberals. Notice what he says the dream of the Liberal Catholic is. Ask youself if this is now what has happened during the past 48 years:
CHAPTER 9: TWO KINDS OF LIBERALISM

Philosophy and theology teach that there are two kinds of atheism, doctrinal or speculative, and practical. The first consists in an open and direct denial of the existence of God; the second consists in acting and living without denying the existence of (50) God, but yet as if He did not really exist. Those who profess the first are called theoretical or doctrinal atheists; those who live according to the second, practical atheists: the latter are the more numerous.

It is the same with Liberalism and Liberals. There are theoretical and practical Liberals. The first are the dogmatizers of the sect philosophers, the professors, the controversialists, the journalists. They teach Liberalism in books, in discourses, in articles, by argument or by authority, in conformity with a rationalistic criterion in disguised or open opposition to the criterion of the divine and supernatural revelation of Jesus Christ.

Practical Liberalists are by far in the greater majority. Like a flock of sheep, with closed eyes, they follow their leaders. They know nothing in truth of principles and systems, and, did they perceive the perversity of their instructors, would perhaps detest them. But, deceived by a false cry or shibboleth, they troop docilely after their false guides. They are none the less the hands that act, while the theorists are the heads that direct. Without them, Liberalism would never pass beyond the narrow bounds of speculation. It is the practical Liberalists that give it life and exterior movement. They constitute the first (51) matter of Liberalism, disposed to take any form, ready for any folly or absurdity proposed by the leaders.

Amongst Catholic Liberals many of them go to Mass, even make novenas, and yet when they come in contact with the world lead the lives of practical Liberals. They make it a rule “to live up to the times,” as they call it. The Church they believe to be somewhat outofdate, an old fogy; that she is held back by a certain set of reactionaries, Ultramontane; but they have hopes that she will in the course of time catch up with the modern spirit of progress, of which they are the van. The barnacles of medievalism still encumber the bark of Peter, but time, they believe, will remedy this. The straw of medieval philosophy and theology they hope before long to thrash out by the introduction of the modern spirit into her schools. Then will a new theology be developed more in conformity with the needs of the times, more in harmony with the modern spirit which makes such large demands upon our “intellectual liberty.” So they believe (or imagine they believe) that all is well. Is their responsibility before God, therefore, lessened? Assuredly not. They sin directly in the light of faith. They are less excusable than those Liberals who have never been within the pale of the Church. In short they sin with their eyes open.

Chapter 12 describes the craftiness of Liberalism…
CHAPTER 12
LIKE LIBERALISM BUT NOT LIBERALISM, LIBERALISM BUT NOT LIKE IT

To effect a confusion of ideas is an old scheme of the Devil. Not to understand clearly and precisely is generally the source of intellectual error.
In time of schism and heresy, to cloud and distort the proper sense of words is a fruitful artifice of Satan, and it is as easy to lay snares for the intellectually proud as for the innocent. Every heresy in the Church bears testimony to Satan’s success in deceiving the human intellect by obscuring and perverting the meaning of words. Arianism was a battle of words and owed its longcontinued success to its verbal chicanery. Pelagianism and Jansenism showed the same characteristic, and today Liberalism is as cunning and obscure as any of its heretical predecessors. (64)

For some, Liberalism consists in certain political forms; for others, in a certain tolerant and generous spirit opposed to despotism and tyranny; for others again it means simply civil equality; for many it becomes a vague and uncertain sentiment which shapes itself into opposition to all arbitrary government. Although already defined it will not be amiss to define Liberalism again.

In the first place no political form of any kind whatsoever, whether democratic or popular, is of itself (ex se) Liberalism. Forms are mere forms and nothing more. Forms of government do not constitute their essence. Their forms are but their accidents. Their essence consists in the civil authority by virtue of which they govern, whether that authority be in form republican, democratic, aristocratic, monarchical; it may be an elective, hereditary, mixed or absolute monarch. These various forms of themselves have nothing to do with Liberalism. Any one of the may be perfectly and integrally Catholic. If they accept beyond their own sovereignty the sovereignty of God, if they confess that they derive their authority from Him, if they submit themselves to the inviolable rule of the Christian law; if they hold for indisputable in their parliaments all that is defined by this law; if they acknowledge as the (65) basis of public right the supreme morality of the Church and her absolute right in all things within her own competency, they are truly Catholic governments, whatever be their form; and the most exacting Ultramontanism cannot reproach them.

History offers the repeated example of republican powers which have been fervently Catholic. Such was the aristocratic republic of Venice, such the merchant republic of Genoa, such in our day are certain Swiss Cantons; as examples of mixed monarchies truly Catholic, that of Catalognia and Aragon, the most democratic and at the same time the most Catholic of the Middle Ages; the ancient monarchy of Castile up to the advent of the House of Austria; the elective monarchy of Poland up to the time of the iniquitous dismemberment of that most religious realm. To believe that monarchies are of themselves (ex se) more religious than republics is an ignorant prejudice. The most scandalous example of persecution against Catholicity in modern time, have been given by monarchies, for instance by Russia and by Prussia.

A Government, whatever be its form, is Catholic, if its constitution, its legislation and its politics, are based on Catholic principles; it is Liberal if it bases its constitution, its legislation and its politics on (66) rationalistic principles. It is not the act of legislation by the king in a monarchy, by the people in a republic or by both in a mixed form of government, which constitutes the essential nature of its legislation or of its constitution. What constitutes this is whether it does or does not carry with it the immutable seal of the Faith, and whether it be or be not conformable with what the Christian law imposes upon States as well as individuals. Just as amongst individuals, a king in his purple, a noble with his escutcheon or a workman in his overalls can be truly Catholic, so States can be Catholic, whatever be the place assigned them in the scale of governmental forms. In consequence the fact of being Liberal or antiliberal has nothing whatever to do with the horror which every one ought to entertain for despotism and tyranny, nor with the desire of civil equality between all citizens; much less with the spirit of toleration and of generosity, which, in their proper acceptation, are Christian virtues. And yet all this in the language of certain people and certain journals is called Liberalism. Here we have an instance of a thing which has the appearance of Liberalism and which in reality is not Liberalism at all.

On the other hand there exists a thing which is really Liberalism, and yet has not (67) the appearance of Liberalism. Let us suppose an absolute monarchy like that of Russia, or of Turkey, or better still one of the conservative governments of our times, the most conservative imaginable; let us suppose that the constitution and the legislation of this monarchy or of this government is based upon the principle of the absolute and free will of the king or upon the equally unrestricted will of the conservative majority, in place of being based on the principles of Catholic right, on the indestructibility of the Faith, or upon a rigorous regard of the rights of the Church; then this monarchy and this conservative government would be thoroughly Liberal and antiCatholic. Whether the freethinker be a monarch with his responsible ministry, or a responsible minister with his legislative corps, as far as consequences are concerned, it is absolutely the same thing. In both cases their political conduct is in the direction of freethought and therefore it is Liberal. Whether or not it be the policy of such a government to place restraints upon the freedom of the press; whether, no matter under what pretext, it grinds its subjects, and rules with a rod of iron, a country so governed though it will not be free, will without doubt be liberal. Such were the ancient Asiatic monarchies, such are many of our modern monarchies, such was the government of Bismarck in Germany; such is the monarchy of Spain, whose constitution declares the king inviolable but not God.

Here then we have something which without seeming to resemble Liberalism is really Liberalism, the more subtle and dangerous precisely because it has not the appearance of the evil it is.

We see then what care must be used in treating questions of this kind. It is of great importance above all that the terms of the discussion be carefully defined and that equivocations be studiously avoided which would favor error more than the truth.
 
That may be your personal belief, but it is contrary to that of the Church. The Church has never said the State is forbidden from punishing heresy with death. Quite the contrary: For well over 1000 years that was the practice of the Catholic States, and it was the Church itself who decided if the person was guilty or innocent.

Anyone who believes that the Bible is inspired will know with certainty that God is in favor of the death penalty for those who violate his laws.

Was it wrong when God commanded it?

Deut 22:23-24: “If a man have espoused a damsel that is a virgin, and some one find her in the city, and lie with her, Thou shalt bring them both out to the gate of that city, and they shall be stoned”.

If stoning someone guilty of adultery is wrong in and of itself, why would God have commanded it? Did God command man to do things that were intrinsically wrong? Or could it possibly be that you are wrong? Which do you think is more likely?

I am arguing against Liberalism. Are you implying that the entire magisterium of the Church today are Liberals? I sure hope you are not right.

Wrong. Being openly non-Catholic does not make someone a heretic. The Inquisition investigated Catholics. It did not investigate non-Christians.

You really hate the Catholic Church as it existed up until the New Springtime of Vatican II, don’t you. By the way, when did the Church forcibly convert non-Catholics? Please provide the evidence to support that claim. A good place to search for documentation would be an anti-Catholic website. You may want to look between the article that says Catholics worship Mary, and the one explaining how confession to a Priest is an “invention” of the Fourth Lateran Council.

Then why are you defending it? Liberalism is the exact contrary to Catholicism. It is probably the most crafty of all the errors the Church has ever faced. Never has an error been cloaked in the appearance of good to the extent that liberalism has in our day. Some Catholics have fallen for it hook line and sinker; some accept its principles while deploring the logical consequences; others perceive the danger, but are unable to see the error with complete clarity. How few are there who can still see the errors of liberalism at its root – its principles.

Liberalism and its false principles did not escape the notice of the vigilant Popes of the 19th and 20th centuries. They saw it for what it was, realized the dangers that it presented, and condemned it over and over again. Today these documents stand as a light shining in the darkness – yet the average Catholic is either completely ignorant of these “lights” or simply rejects what they teach for the contrary.

You claim to realize that Liberalism is an error. That’s good. But what you are completely unaware of is how much of the error you have inadvertently absorbed. You really need to read the anti-Liberal documents of the Popes. But be warned, if you don’t like what I am saying, you are going to HATE what the Popes said.
Are we talking about the Church? When did the Church burn heretics? We are talking about these old Catholic states you are so wild about. I have read the history books about the forced conversion of Jews in Spain, and Catholic friends who have told me their family was one of those so converted.

You hate what the Popes are saying now…how is it, then, that you have concluded that I hate the Church? Would you say that you hate the Church now?

There is a great deal in the Old Testament that is superceded by the Gospel. Do not tell me that if you were there when the woman caught in adultery was brought to Our Lord, then, you would have gone ahead and cast the first stone?

If so, I give up. If not, then I do not see how you are not talking out of both sides of your mouth. At any rate, I’ll be gone for awhile, and I expect this discussion will be worn out by the time I get back.
 
You can’t be liberal and Catholic at the same time… according to my (and the Church’s) definition of “liberal”.

And about men and women having different kinds of brains. Some poster (who??) said taht men think more objectively and women think more emotionally…

Well, i have studied this somewhat and actually women’s brains are more active, on more levels, than men’s are… (even when not engaged in mental exercises). Science has proven this. And in women, there is more interaction between the left and the right hemispheres of the brain… their corpus collosum (spelling??) which joins the two, is larger… (etc.). I even heard or read somewhere the simple statement that “women are biologically superior to men.”

That doesn’t mean they are better than men or that God loves them more. Of course, all people are created equal (of equal value) in God’s eyes.
 
Is Pax et Caritas suggesting that if you are a political liberal that you are acting contrary to the Catholic faith ??? I find that somewhat absurd and perhaps sinfully judgemental. I am proud to be a political liberal and find the “Conservative” positions on the war in Iraq, capital punishment and torture to be difficult to justify.
Let us not equate political debate with heresy, sin etc. Loosen up a little.
 
Is Pax et Caritas suggesting that if you are a political liberal that you are acting contrary to the Catholic faith ??? I find that somewhat absurd and perhaps sinfully judgemental. I am proud to be a political liberal and find the “Conservative” positions on the war in Iraq, capital punishment and torture to be difficult to justify.
Let us not equate political debate with heresy, sin etc. Loosen up a little.
How about the liberals position on abortion, gay marriage, cloning, embryonic stem cell research or euthanasia. Do you mean to tell me these don’t get to you. More have died in this country from abortion since Roe v Wade than in all of the wars we have been involved in since we became 'One Nation Under God", which at present certainly seems like a misnomer.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
How about the liberals position on abortion, gay marriage, cloning, embryonic stem cell research or euthanasia. Do you mean to tell me these don’t get to you. More have died in this country from abortion since Roe v Wade than in all of the wars we have been involved in since we became 'One Nation Under God", which at present certainly seems like a misnomer.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Therein lies the problem with labels. The list you gave above makes my skin crawl, but on the other hand, I feel that many governmental programs and policies that are considered “liberal” by many, are consisitent with Church teaching and Christian faith.
 
I am really interested in seeing what Bob’s response will be
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
It always somewhat amazes me that political “conservatives” tend to believe that every political “liberal” favors every issue that disturbs the “conservative”. As a “liberal” I do not assume that all “conservatives” favor war, capital punishment and torture and believe that global warming is a myth. As far as the issues mentioned by the good Deacon, I believe all women should choose life , I think the Church is very wrong on its position on gay marriage, I think cloning of a human being would be wrong,
I’m against creating embryos for stem cell research and at age 77 I’m certainly against euthanasia. (I guess my disagreement on gay marriage does me in !!!)
I do believe that because one is willing to be labeled a “liberal” or a “conservative” one does not surrender his or her right to think and make judgments of his or her own .
 
I think the Church is very wrong on its position on gay marriage, …
Please elaborate on this. I understand the Church’s position on homosexuality to be wonderfully succint. Is there something I don’t know?

TBL
 
I agree that the Church’s teaching is quite succinct on the subject of homosexuality. I just strongly believe that the Church is wrong. Call me a heretic or toss me out of the Church. I have had extensive discussions on this subject with my Bishop and he hasn’t tossed me YET.
 
I am a moderate liberal. Liberal is not a dirty word. From an economic standpoint – government programs to help everyone sounds like works of charity to me. I am also for letting the individual choose their life, how to live their life, and how to preserve their life. I have learned that no matter what you do, you cannot stop someone that is determined to do something. I have friends that are gay – love the sinner, hate the sin. I have friends that are not Catholic, they are misguided, but I still love them. To be a total conservative would be considered closed-minded and not see the world for what it is, looking at situations instead of individuals, and sadly, loosing touch of that which is most important: the interpersonal relationships. Either extreme is not right, far left or far right, but the truth comes from looking at what Jesus taught. We need to look at what we do in our daily lives and pass it on. A lot of people have a misconception about Jesus. He was not popular. He was a pariah as were those with which he associated. That is taken for granted due to the mass cultural acceptance presently. I know I am going out on a limb, but deal with the connection. Jesus was hated for who he is. People have judged throughout time for who others are. Blacks during the '50s because they were “inferior.” That being a US example. If you look into your own life, ask if you are a liberal or conservative. If you choose a side, then look at what you generate and the groups of people you choose to hate/discriminate against because of who they are or what they do. You are then no better than those who had Jesus crucified, and you need to remember that you lack that fundamental element–empathy.
 
I am a moderate liberal. Liberal is not a dirty word. From an economic standpoint – government programs to help everyone sounds like works of charity to me. I am also for letting the individual choose their life, how to live their life, and how to preserve their life. I have learned that no matter what you do, you cannot stop someone that is determined to do something. I have friends that are gay – love the sinner, hate the sin. I have friends that are not Catholic, they are misguided, but I still love them. To be a total conservative would be considered closed-minded and not see the world for what it is, looking at situations instead of individuals, and sadly, loosing touch of that which is most important: the interpersonal relationships. Either extreme is not right, far left or far right, but the truth comes from looking at what Jesus taught. We need to look at what we do in our daily lives and pass it on. A lot of people have a misconception about Jesus. He was not popular. He was a pariah as were those with which he associated. That is taken for granted due to the mass cultural acceptance presently. I know I am going out on a limb, but deal with the connection. Jesus was hated for who he is. People have judged throughout time for who others are. Blacks during the '50s because they were “inferior.” That being a US example. If you look into your own life, ask if you are a liberal or conservative. If you choose a side, then look at what you generate and the groups of people you choose to hate/discriminate against because of who they are or what they do. You are then no better than those who had Jesus crucified, and you need to remember that you lack that fundamental element–empathy.
Empathy does not require tolerance of error. We’re called to admonish the sinner. Yet nowadays that is being intolerant. We’re told to keep our spiritual lives private and let our neighbor do as he pleases. Is that loving your neighbor? Did Christ love us by leaving us in darkness and not care about sin? No.

We love our neighbor by not only clothing him, feeding him, and sheltering him, but also by educating him about the truth. Spiritual works of mercy include admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant. Sometimes that requires us to say “Hey, what you’re doing is wrong.” Brotherly love is not lassiez-faire libertarianism. Just as we instruct our children on what is right and wrong, so should we instruct the ignorant and illuminate their path through Christ’s way; because we love them.
 
Empathy does not require tolerance of error. We’re called to admonish the sinner. Yet nowadays that is being intolerant. We’re told to keep our spiritual lives private and let our neighbor do as he pleases. Is that loving your neighbor? Did Christ love us by leaving us in darkness and not care about sin? No.

We love our neighbor by not only clothing him, feeding him, and sheltering him, but also by educating him about the truth. Spiritual works of mercy include admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant. Sometimes that requires us to say “Hey, what you’re doing is wrong.” Brotherly love is not lassiez-faire libertarianism. Just as we instruct our children on what is right and wrong, so should we instruct the ignorant and illuminate their path through Christ’s way; because we love them.
Very well said.
👍
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Actually, I don’t know of an instance where Christ endorsed anything political.
If you’ve studied the parable of the Workers in the Field, you’d be inclined to call Christ more of a libertarian than anything else. Live according to the contracts that you’ve made and don’t compare your wages with others.
 
You missed the point again. When the Magisterium teaches, it does so as a body, not individually. this is why Lefevbre was incorrect in what he did. He was an individual member of the magisterium, but his decisions were not that of the magisterium. so too with this cardinal
Prayers& blessings
Deacon Ed B
So who exactly defines who the “magisterium” is and what they say or said or will say? And who has been assigned officially to interpret what the “magisterium” says or said or will say? If you mean Pope, than say so, but please don’t go throwing out labels just because they sound Catholic.
 
If you’ve studied the parable of the Workers in the Field, you’d be inclined to call Christ more of a libertarian than anything else. Live according to the contracts that you’ve made and don’t compare your wages with others.
A good point.

Does the purpose of the parable parlay into our social/political views as it does to our spiritual life?

How does this same parable translate into the attitudes of some Catholics who regularly “compare” styles and forms of worship?
 
A number of posts ago, I posed the following to Pax et Caritas.

**Are not liberal democratic states the best protectors of Religious Freedom? Or, are you asserting that Francisco Franco’s Spain (1938-1975) is superior to the U.S., for example?
**
Pax, after reading your subsequent posts, I think I know your answer. However, the posts on this very interesting thread (thanks for starting it by the way) are long and complex. Could you give me your answer to my queries so that I can be sure I understand your argument?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top