Are you amazed at how well the bible is written given it's ancient origins

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It is amazing when translated from one language to another, that a document can mean the same in the language being translated from as the language being translated TO! Even in recent months, things that Pope Francis has said publicly have been “translated” into something he might not have originally meant, speaking in Spanish or Italian and being translated into English.🤷
Exactly. No matter how you try to translate it, you are always that much further removed from the original. One needs to go back and study them in the original to get the real truth and the real poetry and the real nuances. And the only thing that’s been preserved in the original which I know of is/are the Dead Sea Scrolls. But trying to decode that isn’t the easiest thing in the world either. One must be familiar with not only that language but the context and handwriting styles of those days as well. Could be God’s plan, though, to have to make us work to see the truth.
 
I’m not so amazed. For all the fancy toys and great ways we have of killing each other, mankind seems to be regressing, intent on rejecting the gifts the Holy Spirit would otherwise bestow on us.
This is coming across as cynical, I am sure; but, I have no idea why there exists a myth that we are smarter than our forebears.
 
I’m not so amazed. For all the fancy toys and great ways we have of killing each other, mankind seems to be regressing, intent on rejecting the gifts the Holy Spirit would otherwise bestow on us.
This is coming across as cynical, I am sure; but, I have no idea why there exists a myth that we are smarter than our forebears.
Exactly! I do not recall ancient civilizations trying to build weapons which can wipe humans off the face of earth like today. But we claim to be “smarter” today-eh? Smarter in the sense how to kill each other off.
 
Exactly! I do not recall ancient civilizations trying to build weapons which can wipe humans off the face of earth like today. But we claim to be “smarter” today-eh? Smarter in the sense how to kill each other off.
Not so much “smarter” Rather more sophisticated in our abilities and technology that we may use to destroy one another.:eek:
 
The thing that impresses me about the Holy Bible is how Christ is prefigured in the Old Testament. “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New” as St. Aurelius Augustine (354-430) said. Mgr. Jean-Joseph Gaume lists 18 prefigures in his Catechism of Perseverance: Adam, Abel, Noah, Melchisedech, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, the Paschal Lamb, the Manna, the Sacrifice, the Brazen Serpent, Moses, Josue, Gideon, Samson, David, Solomon, and Jonah. All prefigures have specific traits which connect them with Our Lord. Just for example Noah built the Ark to save himself and his family from the deluge while Christ built the Church in order to save all from eternal death who enter it.
 
The thing that impresses me about the Holy Bible is how Christ is prefigured in the Old Testament. “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New” as St. Aurelius Augustine (354-430) said. Mgr. Jean-Joseph Gaume lists 18 prefigures in his Catechism of Perseverance: Adam, Abel, Noah, Melchisedech, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, the Paschal Lamb, the Manna, the Sacrifice, the Brazen Serpent, Moses, Josue, Gideon, Samson, David, Solomon, and Jonah. All prefigures have specific traits which connect them with Our Lord. Just for example Noah built the Ark to save himself and his family from the deluge while Christ built the Church in order to save all from eternal death who enter it.
Isn’t it curious how writers of the New Testament happened to write passages that depicted events fulfilling prophecies of the Old Testament. It seems that they had a bias toward creating stories that supported prophecies after the fact. The Bible is a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies, especially if written with an agenda in mind, that of propagating Christianity. This viewpoint is presented by Dr. Bart Ehrman in his book, “Jesus, Interrupted”.

Dr. Ehrman started out as an evangelical Christian, but by the time he finished his studies at Princeton Divinity School, he no longer believed in the inerrancy of the Bible. He pointed out that all the contradictions and discrepancies that scholars have found in the Bible are taught in Divinity Schools across the United States. Ministers who graduate from these Divinity Schools know all about the Bible’s weaknesses but never talk about them to their congregations. That is because their job is to preach, not teach.
 
Isn’t it curious how writers of the New Testament happened to write passages that depicted events fulfilling prophecies of the Old Testament. It seems that they had a bias toward creating stories that supported prophecies after the fact. The Bible is a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies, especially if written with an agenda in mind, that of propagating Christianity. This viewpoint is presented by Dr. Bart Ehrman in his book, “Jesus, Interrupted”.

Dr. Ehrman started out as an evangelical Christian, but by the time he finished his studies at Princeton Divinity School, he no longer believed in the inerrancy of the Bible. He pointed out that all the contradictions and discrepancies that scholars have found in the Bible are taught in Divinity Schools across the United States. Ministers who graduate from these Divinity Schools know all about the Bible’s weaknesses but never talk about them to their congregations. That is because their job is to preach, not teach.
Sad to hear you say what you did, but not surprising. The Bible speaks of nonbelievers…

1 Corinthians 1:18 (NRSVCE)

18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NRSVCE)

14 Those who are unspiritual[a] do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

I pray that you seek God.
 
Isn’t it curious how writers of the New Testament happened to write passages that depicted events fulfilling prophecies of the Old Testament. It seems that they had a bias toward creating stories that supported prophecies after the fact. The Bible is a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies, especially if written with an agenda in mind, that of propagating Christianity.
I might be curious if what they were writing about didn’t actually happen. And since I assume that’s your starting position, I find it to be no wonder that you find it “curious.”

The problem is, we have more evidence to suggest that it did happen than that it didn’t. Thus, I don’t find it curious, but remarkable.

Why propagate Christianity if it is false? Are you proposing some material gain by it? You do realize that for those who wrote the scriptures, the propagation of their “story” usually meant torture and death? So the very people who would have known if their story was true or false acted as though they believed it were true because they were willing to be tortured and killed for it. If it was false, that is what would be curious.
 
I might be curious if what they were writing about didn’t actually happen. And since I assume that’s your starting position, I find it to be no wonder that you find it “curious.”

The problem is, we have more evidence to suggest that it did happen than that it didn’t. Thus, I don’t find it curious, but remarkable.

Why propagate Christianity if it is false? Are you proposing some material gain by it? You do realize that for those who wrote the scriptures, the propagation of their “story” usually meant torture and death? So the very people who would have known if their story was true or false acted as though they believed it were true because they were willing to be tortured and killed for it. If it was false, that is what would be curious.
Spreading the word orally invited one to be tortured and killed. That is what lead to the deaths of Jesus, Peter, James and a host of other prominent religious leaders.

Nobody knows for sure who wrote many of the scriptures. That is especially true of the Gospels. The same was true in Roman times. Since pseudonyms, homonyms, forgers, etc. were rampant and there were no printing presses, authorship of a scroll was impossible to nail down. Copying scripture by scribes was the only way to produce multiple copies, providing opportunities for scribes to insert their own passages. Prevarications are what got people excited, and eye witness accounts were as doubtful then as they are in a court of law today.

Thousands of students at divinity schools across the United States as well as at the University of North Carolina are taught to be skeptical of what is in the Bible. These teachings are supported by scholarly works as well as investigational projects assigned to students. To know the truth is more powerful than blindly accepting what your preacher tells you or what you learn in Sunday School. That is the watchword of curious people.

In the first few centuries following the death of Jesus, there was no commonly accepted version of the tenets of Christianity. Different bishops were teaching different things to their parishioners. There were acrimonious debates among bishops who were teaching Marcionism, Gnosticism, Arianism, and Athanasianism because there was no established religion. Then after Origen, Eusebius, and Ireneaus got into the act, things got serious. When the Council of Nicaea was convened, at last there was an attempt to create a unified Chrisitianity, because Emperor Constantine realized this was an excellent way to gain power over his Roman subjects. In fact, the very idea of a Pope was modeled after Roman ideas of controlling an empire.

So Christianity was invented and many of its tenets were invented to further the aims of the Catholic Church. The result was unanimity and an end to the squabbling. This lasted for several centuries. Eventually, however, the Orthodox wing split off and formed its own version of Christianity independent of the Pope.
 
Spreading the word orally invited one to be tortured and killed. That is what lead to the deaths of Jesus, Peter, James and a host of other prominent religious leaders.
Yet they still did it, meaning they were willing to die for what they believed. And they were the ones who would have known if it was true or not.
Nobody knows for sure who wrote many of the scriptures. That is especially true of the Gospels. The same was true in Roman times. Since pseudonyms, homonyms, forgers, etc. were rampant and there were no printing presses, authorship of a scroll was impossible to nail down.
Who cares? We know it was general practice to attribute authorship to the source of the story/teaching/information, even if that source wasn’t the one actually writing it down. So even if the Gospels weren’t written directly by Matthew, Mark or Luke (we’re fairly certain John wrote his), it doesn’t matter because we can be sure that they taught what is contained therein.
Copying scripture by scribes was the only way to produce multiple copies, providing opportunities for scribes to insert their own passages.
True, but literary scholars are able to tell when something has been inserted that wasn’t there originally. And we know there are very few cases of that.
Prevarications are what got people excited, and eye witness accounts were as doubtful then as they are in a court of law today.
True, but the fact they were willing to die for what they testified for proves the reliability of it.
To know the truth is more powerful than blindly accepting what your preacher tells you or what you learn in Sunday School.
Yeah, and? Are you trying imply this about me, or the other members of this forum? Don’t be condescending, especially when you’ve got zero evidence for your derogatory implications.
In the first few centuries following the death of Jesus, there was no commonly accepted version of the tenets of Christianity. Different bishops were teaching different things to their parishioners.
This is speculation on your part, and not very good speculation at that. We have evidence in the NT letters of a commonly accepted creed.
There were acrimonious debates among bishops who were teaching Marcionism, Gnosticism, Arianism, and Athanasianism because there was no established religion.
There were debates, certainly, but not because the religion hadn’t been established. Rather, it was because the religion was so young, and many aspects of it were not well understood. We are witness to some of those debates in the NT, and we are also witness to those debates being settled authoritatively.
Then after Origen, Eusebius, and Ireneaus got into the act, things got serious.
Because dying for your beliefs wasn’t serious.
When the Council of Nicaea was convened, at last there was an attempt to create a unified Chrisitianity, because Emperor Constantine realized this was an excellent way to gain power over his Roman subjects.
Actually, it wasn’t an attempt to create a unified Christianity, it was an attempt to declare authoritatively to Christians everywhere what teachings were true and which were false. Your comment about Constantine’s “realization” is pure speculation. Have you spoken to him, lately? Or are you able to read the minds of dead men? From the accounts we have, Constantine was converted to Christianity. But let’s ignore the actual evidence we have and postulate fancy, instead.
In fact, the very idea of a Pope was modeled after Roman ideas of controlling an empire.
Actually, the idea of a Pope is rooted in the model of the Davidic Kingdom, not the Roman Empire. A Roman Emperor was considered to be a god. The Pope is understood to be a prime minister for the King while the King is absent. A Roman Emperor could act unilaterally in his rule of the empire. A Pope cannot act independently of his fellow Bishops, and the universal teachings of the Church. Romans are subject to the Roman Emperor and serve his goals. The Pope is subject to the Church, and serves it.

Your perspective on the Pope is inaccurate if you think it’s modelled after Roman emperors.
So Christianity was invented and many of its tenets were invented to further the aims of the Catholic Church.
Wait, wait, wait. Christianity (as there was no “Catholic Church” at the time of the Nicaean Council) invented itself and its tenets to further its own aims? Am I reading that right? I could understand if you said “Constantine invented Christianity to further his own aims.” That would at least make some semblance of sense.
The result was unanimity and an end to the squabbling. This lasted for several centuries. Eventually, however, the Orthodox wing split off and formed its own version of Christianity independent of the Pope.
Actually, the EO are basically the same as the RC, with the exception of the Papacy. Calling it “its own version of Christianity” really blurs the reality. The various rites look really different, and there are a few doctrinal differences that don’t really amount to much in the life of Faith, but they’re essentially the same. Even Pope Benedict XVI said as much, that the only tenet that the EO had to accept to be in full communion with the RCC was the teaching on the Papacy. Even then, they already accept the idea of “first among equals,” which is a big step in the right direction.
 
It is truly a mystery how the Holy Spirit works.

In today’s Gospel we hear
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.’ The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”

Now I wouldn’t be venturing much in saying that the majority of Catholics here on this Forum experienced a conversion that led them to, or back to their faith.

How is it that some people exposed to the same literature, only see “a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies . . . with an adenda in mind . . .”?

In my case, I find the faith and especially participation in the Church, expresses in thought and action what I have found to be true over the course of a long life, much of it spent seeking God.
It seems clear to me that a relationship with God is best developed as a member of a community. The obvious choice, if known to the person, is the church He, Himself established.

I suppose it was the Holy Spirit calling, that propelled our search and led us to Catholicism. Had we been searching for something else which is psychological, sociological, political etc, our views would not differ much from what a secular humanist would see.

Very, very interesting.

Personally, it is scary, because I have no excuse.
 
Isn’t it curious how writers of the New Testament happened to write passages that depicted events fulfilling prophecies of the Old Testament. It seems that they had a bias toward creating stories that supported prophecies after the fact. The Bible is a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies, especially if written with an agenda in mind, that of propagating Christianity. This viewpoint is presented by Dr. Bart Ehrman in his book, “Jesus, Interrupted”.
I was not really talking about prophecy here, but you would have suppose the accounts of His life were fabricated to the most minute detail from His Name, Divine origin and birth to the setting of the Eucharist, His betrayal, that He carried His own Cross and was crucified between two thieves, the way of execution in general, the piercing of His Side, and that the Jews were driven out of their lands soon after His death, that Gentiles rather than Jews would follow Him etc., etc. and etc. You may well claim this to your own detriment, but do not say the connections are not impressive in their detail which is my point, and beyond the abilities of a group of simple fishermen who save for one died for their Faith. I took the trouble to write down the seven first Prefigures for you but as you may guess, the list goes on and on and on. The existence of the most of the connections is not mentioned in the Holy Bible and I guess only God knows who found them out first.

Adam:
Adam is the father of all men according to the flesh while Our Lord is the father of all men according to the spirit; God forms from the rib of sleeping Adam a companion for him while God forms from the side of the dead Christ the Church His companion.

Abel:
Abel offered a sacrifice which was agreeable to God while Our Lord offers a sacrifice which was infinitely more agreeable God; Abel is lead out into the field and killed by his brother Cain while Our Lord is lead out of Jerusalem and put to death by the Jews His brethren; the blood of Abel cried to heaven for vengeance while the Precious Blood of Our Lord cries for mercy in our behalf; Cain was condemned to wander the earth as a vagabond while the Jews too became vagabonds after the death of Christ.

Noah:
Noah signifies Consoler while Our Lord signifies Saviour; Noah alone finds grace before God while Our Lord alone finds grace before His Father; Noah builds an ark to save him and his family from the Deluge while Our Lord builds the Church to save from eternal death all who enter it; the higher the water rose the higher to heaven the ark mounted while the more the Church experiences tribulations the more she elevates herself to God; Noah was chosen to be the father of a new world while Our Lord is the originator of the just of the earth and the saints of Heaven.

Melchisedech:
Melchisedech signifies King of Justice while Our Lord is justice itself; Melchisedech was a priest of the Most High while Our Lord is also a priest by excellence; Melchisedech blessed Abraham while Our Lord blesses the Church represented by Abraham; Melchisedech offers in sacrifice bread and wine while Our Lord offers Himself as a sacrifice under the appearance of bread and wine.

Isaac:
Isaac is the well-beloved son of his father Abraham while Our Lord is the beloved son of God the Father; Isaac though innocent is condemned to death while Our Lord who is innocence itself was too condemned to death; It is the father of Isaac who must immolate him while it is God the Father who through the Jews immolated His Son Our Lord; Isaac himself carries the wood which is to consume him while Our Lord Himself carried the Cross on which He would die; Isaac lets himself to be tied to the pile without a murmur while Our Lord suffers the same to be executed on the Cross; It is on Calvary that Isaac offers his sacrifice while it was also on Calvary where Our Lord offered His sacrifice; Isaac is blessed by God as a reward for his obedience while Our Lord is also blessed and receives all the nations of the earth as His inheritance.

Jacob:
Jacob in order to obey his father went into a far distant country to seek for a spouse while Our Lord to obey His Father descended from Heaven on earth to unite Himself with His spouse the Church; Jacob though very rich set out alone and had for his pillow nothing but a stone found in the desert while Our Lord the Master of all things had not even a stone on which to lay His Sacred Head; Jacob was obliged to labor a long time to obtain his spouse while Our Lord suffered most painful labors to form the Church His spouse; Jacob returned to his father with his family while Our Lord ascended to His Father with all the saints of the ancient law and opened Heaven to all Christians His children.

Joseph:
Joseph was well beloved son of Jacob his father while Our Lord is the well beloved Son of God the Father; Joseph was maltreated and sold by his brethren to strange merchants while Our Lord was maltreated by Jews and betrayed by Judas and delivered to the Romans who put Him to death; Joseph is condemned for crime of which he was innocent while Our Lord was condemned for crimes of which He was innocent of; Joseph is found in prison with two criminals and announces pardon to one and punishment to the other while Our Lord is placed on the Cross between two criminals and promises Heaven to one and leaves the other to his perdition; Joseph passes from his prison to the throne itself of Pharaoh while Our Lord passes from the Cross to the throne itself of God the Father; Joseph is obeyed by strangers before he is obeyed by his own brethren while Our Lord is obeyed by infidel nations before He is obeyed by the Jews; Joseph saves his brethren from death when they came to him while Our Lord will save the Jews from error when they will have embraced Christianity.
 
What was the education level back then?

LOVE! ❤️
🙂

no, but am quite surprised that more than 20 % of “modern” bibles ( post-Latin ) are 80 or more percent accurate and insightfully consistent with each other.

God bless
 
It is truly a mystery how the Holy Spirit works.

In today’s Gospel we hear
John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.’ The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.”

Now I wouldn’t be venturing much in saying that the majority of Catholics here on this Forum experienced a conversion that led them to, or back to their faith.

How is it that some people exposed to the same literature, only see “a human book created by humans with human biases and editorial tendencies . . . with an adenda in mind . . .”?

In my case, I find the faith and especially participation in the Church, expresses in thought and action what I have found to be true over the course of a long life, much of it spent seeking God.
It seems clear to me that a relationship with God is best developed as a member of a community. The obvious choice, if known to the person, is the church He, Himself established.

I suppose it was the Holy Spirit calling, that propelled our search and led us to Catholicism. Had we been searching for something else which is psychological, sociological, political etc, our views would not differ much from what a secular humanist would see.

Very, very interesting.

Personally, it is scary, because I have no excuse.
wow, thank You 😊 God’s Love begets beauty there. 👍

God bless
 
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