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Peter_J
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Well I don’t think I would say “compromise”, but I think I get what you mean: we don’t embrace the Anglican’s Branch Theory, but neither do we claim that you cannot be Christian without being icwR.
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Isaiah45_9
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Let’s revisit what you said in Post #71:
Can you support this (bold)?
While you are at it, you might want to read an official Catholic Source:
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
Can you support this as well (bold)?
In the mean time, we can revisit some Scriptural passages:
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior[a]* Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
15 Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority.*** Let no one disregard you.
"benhur:
Is grace supposed to be simple?
Who is saying that salvation is because of works? Can you support this?
Why would we need to place faith in our works response? Can you support this?
been institutionalized)of course.
No.
Can you please point to where I said this? If not, why do you ask?
This is part of the *cymbalistic *reasoning that aggravates me. Symbolism. Is the crying in the question you mentioned above symbolic?
We are not symbolic beings but flesh and blood that will surely die. Further, even our spirit is not symbolic, but eternal. Are we going to a symbolic heaven or a symbolic hell? If your answer is: no. We need to revisit this “symbolic” theology you are presenting.
The death is physical as well. And if we are born of the Spirit only once, why would Paul die [every day]?
*1 Corinthians 15:30 Why am I in peril every hour? 31 I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! *
Why would Christ tell us that we must pick up our cross daily?
Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
You need to read Dominus Iesus (linked above) for the CC position.
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cheezey
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benhur
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You mean there is no salvation in the Catholic Church and her sacraments ? I thought there is no salvation outside of Her.
Yes have read it. Understand there is valid baptism /sacrament “outside” of CC but only because of CC ( “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”, from your article). Again, my context of folks/detractors was not how CC views others but what she tells those who come to her or how she evangelizes or tells folks how to be saved and as detractors say, where. Here are quotes from your article, “The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery… Therefore, the fullness of Christ’s salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church… Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church,”
" the unicity of the Church founded by him must be firmly believed as a truth of Catholic faith. The Catholic faithful are required to profess that there is an historical continuity — rooted in the apostolic succession53 — between the Church founded by Christ and the Catholic Church: " again from article. But yes take my all away, it is too vague and a bad argumentative tool. However, there are certainly a good number of doctrine and dogma and practices that indeed are “required” by CC to believe and or participate in.
That is right, my sheep hear my voice. As Augustine said “He teaches us” while admitting that there is also a “preacher” used of God to that end (was Ambrose his contemporary, who he may have been referring to ?). I am not sure that Augustine would say everything uttered theologically by an Ambrose was as the voice of the Lord.
Yes, but also be careful for the hireling or for the wolves. Never assume that the elder/presbyter is beyond having to meet “conditions”, to the very end (he must persevere in righteousness). We are also to obey them only as far as they speak the will of God. As you know some would say the apostles , even Jesus was a rebel(s) for they had their authorities and elders that were not quite happy with their obedience to their wills/traditions. “Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.”, Matt15:2
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. “And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers”, Gal1:14…" 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ." Coll 1:8…Again it is conditional as far as just what constitutes a “tradition”. The Lord perfectly guided Judaism in the OT to deliver the Savior despite all the improper traditions, as we will be perfectly delivered as the Bride despite any improper traditions found amongst us.
[/INDENT] Yes and… " But ye (children) have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." 1John 2 :20
Is a nativity scene simple ? Is receiving a gift simple ?
Are you solo fide now ?
Are you saying justification is separate from sanctification ?
Yes, forgive my quick judgement but are you saying the Lord wants a “*magical *incantation (sinners prayer)” that it is effectual, unto birth even ( withstanding your not “only”) ?
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benhur
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Because something is symbolic does not mean it is not real, in the spiritual realm. You do not take the literal view of not dying because you “eat the Lord’s flesh-Eucharist” as per His promise, “eat thereof, and not die,…eat and live forever,…unlike your fathers died in the wilderness,” John 6. You and I will die despite "eating’’. Was Jesus lying ? Was he speaking spiritually, metaphorically, symbolically ? Why would one apply a literal interpretation to the one object /action and not the other (eating and living) ?
Yes but secondarily, “for in the day that you eat you shall surely die”.
Not sure I follow. Are you saying we are not born spiritually "once’’ ? I think we are back to justification /sanctification issue again, and of being “filled with the Spirit” daily .
Paul did not mean he spiritually dies daily but was in physical peril everyday.
At least Nicodemus had this right, being born again is very much like being born physically, it is a one time thing, irregardless or assuming a continuance of life and growth (in Christ, carrying your cross-sanctification) but I only have one “birthday”.
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Isaiah45_9
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Please don't deviate from my question.
From the same document you said you read and understand:
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My question was for you to support this comment:
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You left out what follows:
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Not only your "all" comment (Thank you for the retraction even if it had a condition) but this one as well:
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I would like to see support for both of these comments.
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Was Augustine not a Bishop of the Church? Was Ambrose not also a Bishop of the Church?
Also, Can you support that I said "everything" the Church says is to be considered as the voice of the Lord? The Church uses a classification called: "De Fide", only those things are to be considered as a matter of Faith. The rest while authoritative, is not considered a "De Fide" matter.
You say that "my sheep hear my voice". Clearly in Luke 10:16, Christ is delegating to others: "He who hears you hears me".
My question would be: Can Christ be against Christ? Obviously not. How then can you reconcile division in His body? He who hears - who? Then?
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You shall know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16). That doesn't mean create division and break His body.
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This sounds very agnostic. Paul didn't say "hold loosely" to the tradition. He said to "stand firm and hold" Hardly the wiggle room you imply by improper traditions.
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Again, you are missing the bigger context. The verse right before yours says:
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They would have continued with us. Meaning - whoever is not with us now is not from us.
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You are not answering my question.
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You are not answering my question.
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You are not answering my question. Stay in subject please.I'm not the one that says the sinner's prayer saves you in an OSAS manner (Neither can I say you do since I don't know if you hold to this). But it is what is presented by several Protestant communities.
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Isaiah45_9
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Bad analogy. Christ is talking about eternal life. He says" “Life in you” - they are obviously still breathing physically and yet Christ is telling them that unless you eat His flesh, they have no life in them. He is obviously not talking about the physical life, but the eternal life. This life is eternal and while not physical - it is not symbolical.
You are implying that spiritual things are symbolical. That is false. Our spirit is not symbolical, it is very real.
You are not born spiritually once but twice.
Once from the moment of conception and another from the Holy Spirit.
You keep drifting into justification and sanctification. Go over the Apologetics area and we have plenty of threads that deal with those subjects. In this thread we are not discussing them. But discussing the ridiculous error of separating Catholics from Christians.
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TrueChurch
Guest
Wow, it’s good to see an Evangelical consider us Christian.
Sorry we didn’t satisfy your question on that thread.
a couple of things to remember are, we do not consider ourselves the one true Church, but part of the one true Church.
After all, as Father K likes to say, Lutheranism is not a church, but a tradition within the Church.
Jon
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Isaih520
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Anglican calls itself the catholic church in its hymn book,
Did a few years ago when I called in one sunday to be disillusioned, anyhow.
The whole Anglican Church seems to me an image of the first church.
I was baptised Church of England, that church has gone.
As a protestant that has tried to find a church, I can tell you very few people care about Roman Catholics or the reformation or even know about it these days.
I use the King James Bible, which did not come from the Roman Church. It was sourced from outside of it.
And so the Word has not been influenced by Roman philosophers /popes nor need I thank them for keeping that Word alive for me over the centuries.
There are a few protestants like me left who read and understand Daniel/Revelations as the reformers did. But sadly the overwhelmingy majority I meet are protestant by name only.
Even the masons think the pope is cool these days.
The television set killed protestantism. If its not on TV it can’t be important.
Although I suppose reading this topic and seeing catholics quoting the bible means that at least you have access to the Word of god now as a result of The Revolution.
You might show a scintilla of respect for the men who died horribly so you might have that Word. They were most of them raised good Roman Catholics just like you.
Did a few years ago when I called in one sunday to be disillusioned, anyhow.
The whole Anglican Church seems to me an image of the first church.
I was baptised Church of England, that church has gone.
As a protestant that has tried to find a church, I can tell you very few people care about Roman Catholics or the reformation or even know about it these days.
I use the King James Bible, which did not come from the Roman Church. It was sourced from outside of it.
And so the Word has not been influenced by Roman philosophers /popes nor need I thank them for keeping that Word alive for me over the centuries.
There are a few protestants like me left who read and understand Daniel/Revelations as the reformers did. But sadly the overwhelmingy majority I meet are protestant by name only.
Even the masons think the pope is cool these days.
The television set killed protestantism. If its not on TV it can’t be important.
Although I suppose reading this topic and seeing catholics quoting the bible means that at least you have access to the Word of god now as a result of The Revolution.
You might show a scintilla of respect for the men who died horribly so you might have that Word. They were most of them raised good Roman Catholics just like you.
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