"Are you Catholic or are you Christian?" (and other stuff)

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Well, they come from the POV that the Church on Earth has its center in the Bishop of Rome, whom they call the Vicar of Christ. I don’t believe that “separated brethren” refers, specifically to separated from Christ, but instead separated from His Vicar. Of course, I may be wrong.
Jon
You give Catholics great honor in your answers. And as Benhur also asked, " Do Catholics see other Christians as Catholic?" YES, most definitely! And only God know how much one is truly doing His will, yet some aspect are quite obvious, especially when it comes to honoring and defending the Sacraments.

As for this section of your answer, I think we see a profound mystical presence of Christ’s leadership in the Bishop of Rome. So separation with His leadership is profound separation from Jesus. Yet, He is mercifull and still offers His will and Spirit to those who can accept.

Its like asking, are we either Christians who accept everything from the Holy Spirit or Christians who are not Christian because we dont accept and believe and follow everything?

Yes, there are degrees of faith.
 
You give Catholics great honor in your answers. And as Benhur also asked, " Do Catholics see other Christians as Catholic?" YES, most definitely!
Personally, I consider it a grammatical error to call Lutherans, Anglicans etc “Catholic” – although I want to add that it is, perhaps, understandable inasmuch as we also call them “Protestant” rather than"protestant".
 
JonNC, not that I would tell you what to do (:whistle: 😉 :D) but obviously you should definitely, unquestionably apply the phrase “our separated brethren” to not only Catholics but also Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc since you aren’t in communion with them either. 👍 (Unless you prefer “separated brethren and sistren”.)
 
people separating catholic and christian is a pet peeve of mine. i’m always quick to correct it among my church peers.

You may be interested in this thread that i created because i couldn’t understand the adoption of “lutheran” if they really believe themselves to be the one true catholic church. I didn’t get a good explanation i don’t think. Just excuses.
🙂
that’s like asking "are you californian or are you american?"
🙂
 
JonNC, not that I would tell you what to do (:whistle: 😉 :D) but obviously you should definitely, unquestionably apply the phrase “our separated brethren” to not only Catholics but also Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc since you aren’t in communion with them either. 👍 (Unless you prefer “separated brethren and sistren”.)
How about misplaced siblings? 😃

Jon
 
We had a protracted discussion, on a recent thread, about the fact that Lutherans (and Anglicans) are usually not called “Catholic” because that term (with a capital C) is usually defined to mean members of the Roman Communion.

However, I wonder if we could have a worthwhile discussion about the other side of the coin: that many/most protestants (who are not Anglican or Lutheran) see “Catholic” as a negative term, which is to say that they wouldn’t want to be called Catholic, regardless of whether we claim exclusive ownership of the term or not.

(This attitude is illustrated by the ol’ “Are you Catholic or are you Christian?” that many evangelical protestants ask – where they assume that “Catholics”, defined as those in communion with Rome, are not Christians.)
Catholics are of course Christians. Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity just like Episcopalians, etc.
 
Personally, I consider it a grammatical error to call Lutherans, Anglicans etc “Catholic” – although I want to add that it is, perhaps, understandable inasmuch as we also call them “Protestant” rather than"protestant".
Catholics are Christians. Lutherans and Anglicans are not Catholic. They are just Christians.
 
How about misplaced siblings? 😃

Jon
:tsktsk: don’t make me separate you two!

But seriously, when protestants complain about us calling them our separated brethren, it reminds me of Hank Hill saying “Peggy is my wife; I am not her husband.” (Don’t know if there are any King of the Hill fans here.)
 
Catholics, too, once saw things in such black-and-white either-or, you’re-either-one-of-us-or-you’re-not, terms. Personally I’m glad we don’t anymore. :cool:
On a personal level we are either born again or not. beyond that there is plenty of wiggle room/grey area.
 
This question is a bit more difficult, because responding to it depends upon how one defines the term “evangelical”.
I guess it means the gospel producing, calling for, a born again experience, with fruits to follow.
Can you clarify why not? Do they not recognize that we believe we are saved by grace, ,through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast? Have they never read the JDDJ?
I will try to speak for them. If Catholic belief were as simple as you stated here there would be no discussion (of differences). In practice and doctrine the emphasis seems to be for one to become “Catholic”. That is, one can become a Christian thru the institution of the Church and thru sacraments. And one must remain obedient to all she says to remain a persevering, heaven entering Christian. Bottom line is I think they would say in the end it is a salvation by works (sacraments being a righteous work but still a work)…Like it is no longer as simple as you state by grace. Not that works should not follow and even sacraments and or rites, but not for salvation but because of it. That is, where does one place their faith , in the works of Christ or our works in response to His grace ?
Is it false hope to tell a Catholic that they are not really Christian, since they don’t believe whatever theological distinctives Lutherans have adopted that the CC has not received from the Apostles?
Again, you relate being a Christian in terms of a particular church or “theology” or “parochial” view. Not that there isn’t a church or theology, but it must be more universal, making it possible for a Catholic and a Lutheran to be a follower of Christ ( and not because they are a Catholic or Lutheran).
No. We are not at liberty, as Luther was, to depart from the once for all sacred deposit of faith we have received from the Aposltes. We cannot add to it, or subtract from it, as occurred during the Reformation. Neither can we embrace a “different gospel” as we would find our selves accursed.
Looks like we already covered if the gospel has been added to somewhat with works per an evangelical view, as we have also discussed just whom the gospel can embrace, universally (catholicly). Your response is a bit like Luther’s if I recall correctly, individual liberty of conscience and not to go against it.
These are not the same thing, from a Catholic perpective, since we do not separate out justification from sanctification. A person is made new in baptism, but Jesus was very specific in how He wanted us to follow him, and there have been sigificant departures from His teaching over the year. This is why the term “imperfectly joined”.
Correct .We touched on it earlier of faith in calvary and faith in works and how some feel one is for salvation and one is because of salvation. …Did not Paul speak of justification and sanctification as such ?
You ask a just question. I think of most non-Catholics standing in the tradition of Apollos, fervent about what they know, but only having received part of the revelation of God in Christ. Or perhaps those Jews who had only received the baptism of John but were still trying to live according to his teachings.
But evangelically speaking one must see that "theology’’ is not always effective and one can be Christian despite not knowing full truth on other matters. You either know Christ or you do not. Beyond that of course there are different levels of maturity in Him but you are not “separated”.
There are Catholics that do not seem to have a personal relationship with Christ. Nowadays they are being called “sacramentalized but not evangelized”. It is an outcome of poor catechesis both at home and at the parish. These are the ones most likely to wander away.
Thank you for your honesty and info. Jesus had the same problem, as with Nicodemus. He was definitely sacramentalized ( circumcised, barhmitvahed etc, even ordained) but not evangelical (born of the Spirit). I think it goes beyond poor catechesis. I have not heard that the CC teaches that despite sacraments you need to make sure you are born again, born of the Spirit. The assumption is you are (born of Spirit) but you need to walk in it. Big assumption, which again ties in with what I said earlier about what is and is not Christian gospel. Even if prodded by a loving priest how can you walk in it if you have not been born again with your infant baptism ?
Yes, there is significant Catholicity in this statement. Jesus does not justify us so that we can go back to living like we did before. Yet many people have unwittingly embraced ideas and doctrines that the Apsotles would consider heretical, or significantly separating one from the faith.
Understand as JonC has pointed out that “separated” is not from Christ but from your community of faith.
Just a note on the terminology, for Catholics, the term “personal relationship” is a modern innovation that is not found anywhere in the Tradition of the Church or the Scripture, which is why Catholics don’t use it, or conceptualize Christianity that way. That being said, a person cannot be a disciple, either, without a close personal relationship with the Master.
Again, thank you . I appreciate your patience. The term may not be in the bible but close enough with "my sheep *know my *voice " and the negative side ,“depart from me I never knew you” and of course Rev. with, “I stand at the door and knock,… and will sup with you and you with me”. In that culture supping was quite a personal and even intimate event.
 
Catholics are of course Christians. Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity just like Episcopalians, etc.
Catholicism is the original; it isn’t a denomination, as such. All other forms of Christianity trace their source to the Catholic Church, either directly or indirectly.
 
Yes, there is significant Catholicity in this statement. Jesus does not justify us so that we can go back to living like we did before. Yet many people have unwittingly embraced ideas and doctrines that the Apsotles would consider heretical, or significantly separating one from the faith
But Jon wasn’t trying to change the definition of the word “separated” in itself. The point is rather that when I call you my “separated brethren” I mean simply that. That is, that you and I are brethren but we’re separated/ not in full communion. (Some seemed to think, earlier in this thread, that “separated brethren” was a kind of sneaky way of establishing the rightness of our side.)

Of course, I can’t speak on anyone else’s behalf, so the foregoing is just based on my reading of the posts in question.
 
I will try to speak for them. If Catholic belief were as simple as you stated here there would be no discussion (of differences). In practice and doctrine the emphasis seems to be for one to become “Catholic”. That is, one can become a Christian thru the institution of the Church and thru sacraments. And one must remain obedient to all she says to remain a persevering, heaven entering Christian. Bottom line is I think they would say in the end it is a salvation by works (sacraments being a righteous work but still a work)…Like it is no longer as simple as you state by grace. Not that works should not follow and even sacraments and or rites, but not for salvation but because of it. That is, where does one place their faith , in the works of Christ or our works in response to His grace ?
This type of reasoning is like a loud cymbal to my ears… “Christ did it all, I don’t have to do nothing”… If I’m not mistaken, Christ doesn’t want [only] our assent and a magical incantation (sinner’s prayer). But all that we are: mind, body and soul.

James, Chapter 2 comes to mind. And a little passage by Christ… How did it go?

“You shall know them by their fruits” (read works).

A read of Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship” should help as well.
Thank you for your honesty and info. Jesus had the same problem, as with Nicodemus. He was definitely sacramentalized ( circumcised, barhmitvahed etc, even ordained) but not evangelical (born of the Spirit). I think it goes beyond poor catechesis. I have not heard that the CC teaches that despite sacraments you need to make sure you are born again, born of the Spirit. The assumption is you are (born of Spirit) but you need to walk in it. Big assumption, which again ties in with what I said earlier about what is and is not Christian gospel. Even if prodded by a loving priest how can you walk in it if you have not been born again with your infant baptism ?
Define “born again”.
Understand as JonC has pointed out that “separated” is not from Christ but from your community of faith.
It depends on your intention.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Again, thank you . I appreciate your patience. The term may not be in the bible but close enough with "my sheep *know my *voice " and the negative side ,“depart from me I never knew you” and of course Rev. with, “I stand at the door and knock,… and will sup with you and you with me”. In that culture supping was quite a personal and even intimate event.
:juggle:
 
I guess it means the gospel producing, calling for, a born again experience, with fruits to follow.
I will try to speak for them.

Bottom line is I think they would say in the end it is a salvation by works (sacraments being a righteous work but still a work)…Like it is no longer as simple as you state by grace. Not that works should not follow and even sacraments and or rites, but not for salvation but because of it. That is, where does one place their faith , in the works of Christ or our works in response to His grace ?
Benhur–

I’ve only had time to skim your post the morning, but, speaking as an Evangelical Christian myself, what I’ve been taught is that sacraments are fundamentally a work of God, a promised gift of God, a “sure and certain means of grace”; not a work of us though we can receive them.
 
This type of reasoning is like a loud cymbal to my ears… “Christ did it all, I don’t have to do nothing”… If I’m not mistaken, Christ doesn’t want [only] our assent and a magical incantation (sinner’s prayer). But all that we are: mind, body and soul.

James, Chapter 2 comes to mind. And a little passage by Christ… How did it go?

“You shall know them by their fruits” (read works).

A read of Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship” should help as well.
I’m sorry that I’m still just skimming posts, but, Jose, I can see from Benhur’s post that he knows this. I don’t see him advocating any magical incantation-like shallow understanding of faith. I often see Evangelicals use “faith” as a sort of short hand for belief>trust>fruit to follow as the only natural outgrowth of any real trust.

But a plug for Bonhoeffer’s Discipleship is always a good thing.👍
 
I’m sorry that I’m still just skimming posts, but, Jose, I can see from Benhur’s post that he knows this. I don’t see him advocating any magical incantation-like shallow understanding of faith. I often see Evangelicals use “faith” as a sort of short hand for belief>trust>fruit to follow as the only natural outgrowth of any real trust.

But a plug for Bonhoeffer’s Discipleship is always a good thing.👍
Needless to say (unless it isn’t) misunderstandings are a big problem – in both directions.
 
Benhur–

I’ve only had time to skim your post the morning, but, speaking as an Evangelical Christian myself, what I’ve been taught is that sacraments are fundamentally a work of God, a promised gift of God, a “sure and certain means of grace”; not a work of us though we can receive them.
Then what is that righteous work that does not save that Paul speaks of ?
 
This type of reasoning is like a loud cymbal to my ears… “Christ did it all, I don’t have to do nothing”
If that is what you hear then that is what you hear, but that is not what I said .
If I’m not mistaken, Christ doesn’t want [only] our assent and a magical incantation (sinner’s prayer)
Do you make light of those that cry out to the Lord ? (but yes the “sinner’s prayer” has also been institutionalized)
But all that we are: mind, body and soul.
of course.
James, Chapter 2 comes to mind. And a little passage by Christ… How did it go?
“You shall know them by their fruits” (read works).
A read of Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost of Discipleship” should help as well.
Yes and ? It costs you everything, as symbolized in our death with the Lord when we go under in water baptism. You can’t give anymore than your life in death. When we rise a new creature (symbolically) we are then a living sacrifice unto Him.
Define “born again”.
Born of the Spirit, regeneration, a new creation, a quickened spirit , a spirit that was dead to God becomes alive unto God, restoration of the spiritual death that occurred because of Adam’s sin.
It depends on your intention.
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.
Not sure what you mean. CC uses the term not I. Did I not represent the CC intention correctly, separarted not from Christ but from community of faith, from fullness that CC espouses ?
 
But Jon wasn’t trying to change the definition of the word “separated” in itself.
Correct, I may have been misapplying it. My main point is in my circles we do not use the term because of it’s theological nuance.
The point is rather that when I call you my “separated brethren” I mean simply that. That is, that you and I are brethren but we’re separated/ not in full communion.
Yes that is what I got from Jon and understand.
(Some seemed to think, earlier in this thread, that “separated brethren” was a kind of sneaky way of establishing the rightness of our side.)
Did not read that. Yet it would be an interesting study to see just how and why Vat 2 used it .Did they coin it , or officialize it ? From my quick gleanings it was a compromise between the reality of “other” believers in Christ, outside the CC, and keeping up the old vanguard that there is no salvation outside of Her. A “sticky” business , the CC doctrines/teachings on these “others”. Conservatives/hard liners want the uniqueness and inherent need for Catholicity while others try to bridge the gap in reality of the abundant spiritual life outside of it. And of course, nothing can be said to be “new” with such terminology but history and earlier decrees suggest otherwise…thanks again for listening
 
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