Are you considering civil divorce?

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FCGeorge

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Faithful Catholics recognize that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). She will hold up all Truth on Faith and morals.

One Truth She holds up is that a civil divorce can NOT be tolerated and DOES “constitute a moral offense” unless it remains the “only possible way…”

The vast majority of states in the U.S. have a legal separation alternative that provides all of the needed “protections” in the RARE cases when a separation is really needed. This means that a civil divorce can NOT be tolerated and would indeed “constitute a moral offense” in those states.

Our Church holds this up in Her Catechism… even if certain bishops and priests would like to deny it…

*2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. *

So, if your situation is one of the very rare ones where a separation is indeed needed and ok (see canon law) then please, please, check into a legal separation alternative. For the sake of your soul and the souls around you whom your life witnesses to, especially your children.

I pray you see I am not at all condoning separation. The reasons for when a separation could be morally acceptable are very limited.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Just for the record, I am not considering divorce and I am happily married. That being said, it seems to me that the only purpose of this thread is trying to shame people. Now I agree with some of the points, but it seems that they are just being used to make people feel bad about their life decisions.
 
TrixieMcGee said:
Just for the record, I am not considering divorce and I am happily married. That being said, it seems to me that the only purpose of this thread is trying to shame people. Now I agree with some of the points, but it seems that they are just being used to make people feel bad about their life decisions.
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Well said Trixie. 🙂
 
Hmmm…I hear that to receive an annulment (declaring that the marriage was not sacramentally valid), you need to have been civilly divorced before the process can start. I don’t think you can be just legally separated.

So I’m not sure where the church would necessarily stand on the issue of legal separation. Separation in general if needed, but legally? 🤷
 
FCGeorge said:
Faithful Catholics recognize that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). She will hold up all Truth on Faith and morals.

One Truth She holds up is that a civil divorce can NOT be tolerated and DOES “constitute a moral offense” unless it remains the “only possible way…”

The vast majority of states in the U.S. have a legal separation alternative that provides all of the needed “protections” in the RARE cases when a separation is really needed. This means that a civil divorce can NOT be tolerated and would indeed “constitute a moral offense” in those states.

Our Church holds this up in Her Catechism… even if certain bishops and priests would like to deny it…

*2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.177

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. *

So, if your situation is one of the very rare ones where a separation is indeed needed and ok (see canon law) then please, please, check into a legal separation alternative. For the sake of your soul and the souls around you whom your life witnesses to, especially your children.

I pray you see I am not at all condoning separation. The reasons for when a separation could be morally acceptable are very limited.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
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That sounds all well and good but it costs the same and requires the same court proceedings as a divorce in Michigan. So why would I pay all that and endure all that just to be tied to someone who was abusive to me? I was told a legal separation is really a waste of time.

If you have doubts about a divorce don’t file. I lived apart for a year and you can file single for the purpose of taxes only, if you have been apart a year. Some people are not recognized as married in the eyes of the Church so this harping against divorce isn’t always appropriate.

I have never met a single person in any divorce group I’ve been in that jumped into a divorce. Most were devastated, hurt, and many left the Church because they felt they could no longer be Catholic and be divorced. Some of these attitudes are exactly why. I know of absolutely no one who RUSHED into a divorce who is a part of our Catholic divorce support groups. I have a friend who has lived separately for YEARS and is only now filing. Please don’t lump us all into the “rushing into a divorce category” as I know a lot of divorced Catholics. I had one woman who said she would never get an annulment because she will leave the Church and remarry outside the Church when she marries again…why? Because you can’t be Catholic and be divorced and nothing I said could change her mind. She did attend the divorce support group meeting on annulment with the priest so I hope she heard what he said. Very sad that we lose so many this way.
 
LSIP said:
Well said Trixie. 🙂
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Thank you! I am twice divorced. Once before I was Catholic. He is deceased. My 2nd husband was Jewish and I was fallen away when we married OUTSIDE the Church. I was separated for over a year and I was devastated at my divorce. But I cannot say it was all bad because God used it to bring me home. I repented of my sins, I am now annulled and back in the faith.

And to answer someone else’s post you must be civilly divorced before you can proceed with an annulment. And a lot of them are people who married outside the faith. I am NOT going to feel shame. I was wrong for what I did, I repented and there were no children from that marriage so now I have to move on and live God’s way. I believe lifetime marriage is the goal and ideal but people do sin and they should be able to receive forgiveness and if a woman is being beaten or abused, she has a right to have the validity of the sacrament considered. I understand that what happens after marriage is not the issue but it can point to whether or not that spouse gave full consent and intended to be part of a sacramental marriage. The Church allows for that consideration and people need to stop contradicting the Church and beating people up about it.
 
Yeah I love it when people cherry pick part of the Church teachings and give them as the WHOLE Church teaching. To what end - to shame someone. Yes, the pharisees did that too.
 
It’s not so black and white FCGeorge.

There is also the spirit of the law. i am considering civil divorce and you know what? Sometimes the sin is keeping yourself and your children in an unhealthy environment. No he never hit me. No he never destroyed my car or tortured my pets, but emotionally/Mentally…yes.

Besides the church doesn’t even see us as married, so eventually, I will probably just finish the legal part and maybe my mental health will get better.
 
mamaslo said:
It’s not so black and white FCGeorge.

There is also the spirit of the law. i am considering civil divorce and you know what? Sometimes the sin is keeping yourself and your children in an unhealthy environment. No he never hit me. No he never destroyed my car or tortured my pets, but emotionally/Mentally…yes.

Besides the church doesn’t even see us as married, so eventually, I will probably just finish the legal part and maybe my mental health will get better.
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Best wishes and good health to you and all involved no matter what you decide. :gopray2:
 
mamaslo said:
It’s not so black and white FCGeorge.

There is also the spirit of the law. i am considering civil divorce and you know what? Sometimes the sin is keeping yourself and your children in an unhealthy environment. No he never hit me. No he never destroyed my car or tortured my pets, but emotionally/Mentally…yes.

Besides the church doesn’t even see us as married, so eventually, I will probably just finish the legal part and maybe my mental health will get better.
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My prayers are with you.
 
The response to the Catechism’s plain teaching is, sadly, not surprising. Civil divorce has become a “right” in our country and who is some silly Church to take that away!?! (Insert mindset of vast majority of catholics regarding contraception in here as well). The majority of the clergy from the nation of Malta just fought a difficult battle against legalizing civil divorce. They lost that battle and now civil divorce is legal.

I am curious… all who would like the Catechism to say, “civil divorce can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense any time you start to feel that you have a really lousy spouse or any time you want to get the Church to give you an annulment”… why will the Malta clergy who fought so hard to prevent civil divorce from becoming legal now start to say civil divorce can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense?

As to the question as to why one would get a legal separation verses a civil divorce when there is a real need for a separation and legal protections…
Love of Christ and His Church.

Even secular attorneys recognize this. The articles you can find on it usually list the number one reason for a legal separation vs. a civil divorce is “religious reasons.”

Maybe some do want to obey our Blessed Lord when He commanded, “let no man put asunder what God joined.”
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
There should be something else noted that I’m glad someone mentioned. Lets say that Robert marries Jackie and a few years down the road Jackie is not quite the woman Robert wants her to be. Of course Robert starts to villify Jackie and turns every little thing she does or doesnt do into a huge pile of evidence that proves she has been mentally and emotionally abusive beyond what even God Himself can help him survive. Of course Robert has found someone a bit younger and a bit more attractive to him, but that is really besides the point.

Lets say that Robert civilly divorces Jackie (because there is nothing wrong with civil divorce according to his catholic friends) and then ends up “marrying” his nee sweety.

Lets say that Jackie is not swept into the “you need to get yourself one of them there annulments” stream and instead remains faithful to the vows she knows she meant at the time she spoke them.

Lets say that ole Robert has a prodigal son moment and “comes to his senses.” He realizes that he is in what St. Augustine called an “adulterous remarriage.”

A civil divorce can certainly be tolerated because there is no marriage. Robert is still, in reality, married to Jackie.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Again the whole point of this thread seems to be to shame people and make them feel bad, when you really don’t know them or their situations. That isn’t loving them. If someone in your life you know and love is thinking about getting a divorce, then is the time to talk about this issue, but you don’t go to a divorce attorneys office and start spouting off this information to strangers who aren’t asking for your advice. Why, because they are grown adults and you have NO CLUE what is going on with them. Shame tactics really doesn’t work on genuinely changing hearts or minds on any subject.

It seems you are looking at a way to feel morally superior to others and decided to try to shame total strangers.
 
Hmmm…:hmmm:

FCGeorge, you seem to misunderstand not only why people divorce, but what the Roman Catholic teaching is on annulments. Annulments themselves are not “bad” at least in the way you are using it in your scenario. An annulment is a recognition that a marriage is not sacramentally valid - meaning the people involved were never married in the eyes of God. They are free to marry (again, that is even though it is technically the first time). But to start the annulment process, one must seek a civil divorce because marriage is a civil institution as well as religious.

Annulment is NOT a Catholic divorce and therefore, is not an evil or bad thing. It is set in place to assist in difficult situations specifically when it has been determined by a tribunal that the marriage was not valid. But again, not all civil divorces are granted annulments even in the Catholic church. It is determined on a case-by-case basis. And yes, if an annulment is not granted, BOTH partners are to remain unmarried as they are still sacramentally married even if they are divorced.

Now to go to your scenario…

Because the couple did not seek an annulment after their civil divorce, Robert and Jackie would still be sacramentally married. Robert would be living in sin while Jackie is not. But if Jackie had sought an annulment and it was granted, both Jackie and Robert would be free to marry.

But to be frank, no divorce is cut and dry, black and white. Each case is different and your scenario does not consider many factors.
 
The issue in this case is more of a personal one that can be found on FCGeorge’s past threads. It can be discerned for oneself. FCGeorge I really feel this is between you and your ex-wife and the Church will make it’s ruling based on the evidence. If you trust Christ then you will trust His Bride and be obedient and take a look at your own actions and stop this shenanigans. If the Church finds against her and for the marriage than you will be cleared either way it is a private matter.
 
God knows what is in a person’s heart when they decide to divorce. He knows if you tried. If you spent time praying and in front of the Blessed Sacrament when making your decisions. Whether it was done for selfish reasons or for survival.

You should worry less about other people’s choices in life and focus on your on situation.

Many marriages do not have God in them and it really is just a civil decision and not a sacrament.
 
There are MANY cases where a Catholic can, in good conscience, seek a civil divorce.

I was in such a situation. Without going into too much detail, the marriage was invalid, there was abuse/custody issues involved and in seeking a decree of nullity, I was told that I MUST seek a civil divorce before I could begin the process.

However, if a Catholic knows that they are in a valid marriage, unless there is some grave reason, I agree that if the need arises, they should seek a legal separation instead of a divorce.

Peace
 
Hello Trixie,
One of the few mortal sins for the modern therapeutic is guilt. Today we seem to go around with the idea that we are good, nice people if we help someone “feel better.” Guilt obviously does not help someone feel better so we believe that we should eliminate the guilt by helping someone rationalize why their action is really ok… why their action can be justified.

This is not true love, however. It is what our Holy Father called “false charity.” For, as he said, charity without truth slides into sentimentalism."

The truth on divorce is what our catechism plainly says about it. It is a “grave offense againat the natural law.”

If shouting the truth about divorce helps people to feel guilt about considering it then I say "praise be to the Lord! "

If I put my hand on a hot stove it is good that i feel pain. The pain causes me to remove my hand and prevent further damage. As Dr. Peter Kreeft notes, “Guilt is as proper for the soul as pain is for the body.”

Check out St. Peters first Gospel message on the day of Pentecost. What was his goal??
The salvation of souls. How did he achieve it?? My causing them to first see what sin they committed and yes, feel guilt! Not until their “hearts were pierced” did they see the need to ask “what can we do!?!”

Yes, it is good that one feel guilt when considering something that our Church calls a “moral offense.”

Please note, there are morally licit reasons for a separation… and if certain legal protcetions need to be put in place then a civil divorce can even be tolerated if there are no other possible ways (such as legal separation).

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Hello Stacey,
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify. I wasnt trying to claim that a declaration of nullity equals divorce.

Back to the example. Lets say that ole Robert doesnt marry a little sweety. Is he therefore committing no grave sin?

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Dear Joanofarc,
I’m not sure what your motivations are. My wife and children and I will be vacationing together for a week in October. Many faithful and loving friends have been praying for us. I would like to keep the personal stuff away from here. Thank you.

Just noticed your choice of words…Do you believe that Jesus Christ taught that a civil judge has the power to make a wife into an ex-wife? That a civil judge has the power to un-join what God joined?

What Christian first interpretted our Blessed Lord’s teachings in that way?

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
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