Are you considering civil divorce?

[TrixieMcGee]

Hello Trixie,
One of the few mortal sins for the modern therapeutic is guilt. Today we seem to go around with the idea that we are good, nice people if we help someone “feel better.” Guilt obviously does not help someone feel better so we believe that we should eliminate the guilt by helping someone rationalize why their action is really ok… why their action can be justified.

This is not true love, however. It is what our Holy Father called “false charity.” For, as he said, charity without truth slides into sentimentalism."

The truth on divorce is what our catechism plainly says about it. It is a “grave offense againat the natural law.”

If shouting the truth about divorce helps people to feel guilt about considering it then I say "praise be to the Lord! "

If I put my hand on a hot stove it is good that i feel pain. The pain causes me to remove my hand and prevent further damage. As Dr. Peter Kreeft notes, “Guilt is as proper for the soul as pain is for the body.”

Check out St. Peters first Gospel message on the day of Pentecost. What was his goal??
The salvation of souls. How did he achieve it?? My causing them to first see what sin they committed and yes, feel guilt! Not until their “hearts were pierced” did they see the need to ask “what can we do!?!”

Yes, it is good that one feel guilt when considering something that our Church calls a “moral offense.”

Please note, there are morally licit reasons for a separation… and if certain legal protcetions need to be put in place then a civil divorce can even be tolerated if there are no other possible ways (such as legal separation).

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

I am not telling you that you want to eliminate guilt, but what I am saying is that you do not know these people, or their situations, and you are just trying to make them feel guilty. I believe it is so you can feel morally superior. Going around to adult strangers, who you know nothing about, and trying to make them feel guilty over one thing you know about them, is not loving them.

Guilting strangers or trying to guilt strangers generally doesn’t make them say, “hmmm, maybe I should change this in my life,” (never worked for me or anyone else I know) it is much more likely to make them say, “hmm, they don’t even know me or anything about my situation and they are condemning me, if that is how Catholics behave, I don’t want to be one.” That is one of the major things that pushed me away from the Evangelical Fundamentalist Church.

I am not the only one who thought your thread seemed to be put up solely for the fact of guilting others, not saving their soles, or showing them the love of Christ. This is not an effective way to reach others for Christ or encourage the changing of hearts, but it sure is a effective way of turning people away and not wanting anything to do with Catholicism.

p.s. If people HAVE to get a civil divorce before the Church will even start annulment proceedings shows that sometimes the Church does allow for civil divorce. Why? Because the Church recognizes that marriages aren’t always valid to begin with.

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello cviolet,
Yes, God does know the heart. This does not mean, however, that my spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament makes my choice to civilly divorce ok even though the Church plainly teaches it is a “moral offense.”

I can spend as much time as I want in prayer and in front of the Blessed Sacrament. It doesnt make my choice to contracept any less evil either. Even though “God knows my heart.”
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

For those championing the right to civilly divorce even when it it is not “the only possible way…”

Why did the faithful clergy of Malta fight so hard against legalizing civil divorce?

Now that it is legal, do you believe they think it is a o k for a Catholic to choose?

Please also note… there are certainly innocent victims of civil divorces. As long as they are remaining faithful to their vows and not “claiming that the indissoluble bond is broken” then they are not in grave sin.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello Trixie,
Certain bishops do now require civil divorce before considering a petition for an annulment. It doesnt make the practice “right” and it is certainly not “the Church’s.”

Show anywhere in canon law or the Catechism where it says it is the Church’s.

It is from the pit of Hell and I pray it ends soon.

This topic wasnt meant to target anyone, rather, it was meant to target the lie that civil divorce can always be tolerated and never constitutes a moral offenses.

God bless you Trixie

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[joanofarc2008]

Dear Joanofarc,
I’m not sure what your motivations are. My wife and children and I will be vacationing together for a week in October. Many faithful and loving friends have been praying for us. I would like to keep the personal stuff away from here. Thank you.

Just noticed your choice of words…Do you believe that Jesus Christ taught that a civil judge has the power to make a wife into an ex-wife? That a civil judge has the power to un-join what God joined?

What Christian first interpretted our Blessed Lord’s teachings in that way?

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

I am referring to what you have said in other threads. Those are not my motivations but yours. If you misrepresented your situaiton in those threads or this one to make your point that is on you. If things have gotten better than God bless you but that is your situation not everyone else’s.

 

[Rence]

Just for the record, I am not considering divorce and I am happily married. That being said, it seems to me that the only purpose of this thread is trying to shame people. Now I agree with some of the points, but it seems that they are just being used to make people feel bad about their life decisions.

Yeah, this gets posted every few weeks or so…

 

[Rence]

Hmmm…I hear that to receive an annulment (declaring that the marriage was not sacramentally valid), you need to have been civilly divorced before the process can start. I don’t think you can be just legally separated.

That is correct.

 

[hurting]

I do not see Bryan’s posts as attempts to ‘guilt’ people into a particular pattern of behavior, although I do see where some may view them as discomfiting. The fact that what he says makes some uncomfortable does not make it wrong, and in fact, might be a very charitable act.

 

[mamaslo]

While I am in a place where this is very likely the course of action I will take, I do take to heart what the Catechism says and how the Church DOES see marriage. The church’s viewpoint is just beautiful.

We do need to know that we are loved warts and all, and I think marriage is one way God shows His infinite love for us.

My case is that I am in an invalid attempt at marriage and would only have to use the short form annulment. I am in this place because I DID stand up for what the church teaches when he would not get an annulment from his first wife. then he did, but only after trying to get my kids to hate me. Getting his mom to hate me. I believe I am supposed to forgive him for his behavior, but I do not have to place me or my children back in that environment full time and legally, there needs to be things written down.

I explained it as the lesser of two evils. Divorce is evil, and being evil to your family is evil. Which sin is worse? They are both evil? Well if it will help save your children’s soul and not to mention their health, then which is the lesser evil?

As has been mentioned before, not all states have legal separation. We are separated now as my daughter could not handle it anymore, still waiting on the ER bill on that one.

the problem with a question like this is that it lumps everyone together who has anything to do with a divorce.

Your example was a lumping together as well…that the only reason people want to divorce is because there is a honey on the side.

Is it a good thing for me to take my kids away from their father’s constant negativity and making everything about himself and how it effects him? Um, no, I dont think so. Is it ideal, not even close. the lesser of two evils. I am not sure that we can all be lumped together. For me, the sin was attempting a marriage to someone who had already been married…and now my kids who are my vocation, are the ones who suffer for that choice. Now it’s time to redeem my family as best as I can. through God’s grace it will happen.

He has never hit me. He has never drained the bank account. He has never molested anyone sexually, he has never threatened to kill my pet to coerce me…but undermining, disrespect, telling my kids that I am not doing my part, letting his mom take over the home, letting her say things about me to the kids, overriding what had already been established as a plan, showing up all the time, interfering with her son’s ability to take care of his family by making the good hard sacrifices…always giving a violent negative response to a criticism. Brooding in his room, silence. Anger at my DD for choosing to be confirmed. I could go on…that is emotional abuse.

I have no physical signs other than depression and suicidal thoughts. My DD…crazy mood swings, anxiety, withdrawing…I could go on. DS thinking he is dumb, and not teaching him the things a father is supposed to teach his son…

sins of omission. Father forgive us for the things we have done, and the things we have left undone.
In my opinion, the topic of divorce and your association with BC has become a routine complaint and you are right, something needs to be done. I agree that sometimes being the messenger of truth is also love in its most coarsest package. I spoke the truth at home that being married to a man who didn’t have an annulment was adultery. I was abused for it. My kids were abused for it. There was very few people there for me…and I was following the church’s teaching. So yes, at this point, eventhough he has gone through the annulment process. He is now free to marry according to the Church…but why would I want to marry a person who would abuse me over my relationship with God? Why would I WANT a permanent sacrament with this person?

Yes, I think there is a time and a place for everything. I simply cannot be attached to this man any longer…any more than I have to be.

And yes, thank God for His LOVE SO AMAZING! I am so glad He does love the unlovable.

 

[LSIP]

While I am in a place where this is very likely the course of action I will take, I do take to heart what the Catechism says and how the Church DOES see marriage. The church’s viewpoint is just beautiful.

We do need to know that we are loved warts and all, and I think marriage is one way God shows His infinite love for us.

My case is that I am in an invalid attempt at marriage and would only have to use the short form annulment. I am in this place because I DID stand up for what the church teaches when he would not get an annulment from his first wife. then he did, but only after trying to get my kids to hate me. Getting his mom to hate me. I believe I am supposed to forgive him for his behavior, but I do not have to place me or my children back in that environment full time and legally, there needs to be things written down.

I explained it as the lesser of two evils. Divorce is evil, and being evil to your family is evil. Which sin is worse? They are both evil? Well if it will help save your children’s soul and not to mention their health, then which is the lesser evil?

As has been mentioned before, not all states have legal separation. We are separated now as my daughter could not handle it anymore, still waiting on the ER bill on that one.

the problem with a question like this is that it lumps everyone together who has anything to do with a divorce.

Your example was a lumping together as well…that the only reason people want to divorce is because there is a honey on the side.

Is it a good thing for me to take my kids away from their father’s constant negativity and making everything about himself and how it effects him? Um, no, I dont think so. Is it ideal, not even close. the lesser of two evils. I am not sure that we can all be lumped together. For me, the sin was attempting a marriage to someone who had already been married…and now my kids who are my vocation, are the ones who suffer for that choice. Now it’s time to redeem my family as best as I can. through God’s grace it will happen.

He has never hit me. He has never drained the bank account. He has never molested anyone sexually, he has never threatened to kill my pet to coerce me…but undermining, disrespect, telling my kids that I am not doing my part, letting his mom take over the home, letting her say things about me to the kids, overriding what had already been established as a plan, showing up all the time, interfering with her son’s ability to take care of his family by making the good hard sacrifices…always giving a violent negative response to a criticism. Brooding in his room, silence. Anger at my DD for choosing to be confirmed. I could go on…that is emotional abuse.

I have no physical signs other than depression and suicidal thoughts. My DD…crazy mood swings, anxiety, withdrawing…I could go on. DS thinking he is dumb, and not teaching him the things a father is supposed to teach his son…

sins of omission. Father forgive us for the things we have done, and the things we have left undone.
In my opinion, the topic of divorce and your association with BC has become a routine complaint and you are right, something needs to be done. I agree that sometimes being the messenger of truth is also love in its most coarsest package. I spoke the truth at home that being married to a man who didn’t have an annulment was adultery. I was abused for it. My kids were abused for it. There was very few people there for me…and I was following the church’s teaching. So yes, at this point, eventhough he has gone through the annulment process. He is now free to marry according to the Church…but why would I want to marry a person who would abuse me over my relationship with God? Why would I WANT a permanent sacrament with this person?

Yes, I think there is a time and a place for everything. I simply cannot be attached to this man any longer…any more than I have to be.

And yes, thank God for His LOVE SO AMAZING! I am so glad He does love the unlovable.

Mamaslo, you seem exhausted with pain. I pray you have support, people to help you through this difficult time. I will pray for your health and well being as well as for all involved.

I do not mean to be “uncharitable” to you by not repeating canon law to you. I do care about your soul. God knows you and your situation. I understand Him to be loving, merciful and forgiving.

Please take special care of yourself and your children. Ask people you trust for help.

In His peace, :console:

LSIP

PS You are lovable. You are a child of God and loved beyond belief.

 

[mamaslo]

LSIP,
Thank you for that. I meant to bring to the table that we shouldn’t all be lumped together and emotional abuse is real. Just as damaging but you just cannot put your finger on it and it gets discounted a lot.

I am not pro divorce if you are just passing a gall stone. I tolerated a lot until my daughter needed help. It is actually part of my redemption and prayer being answered…i asked God to show me how to love better and though heart wrenching and full of warning…me and my daughter understand one another now.

I am filled with pain and also there is still poison, eventhough I tried not to act on it, it still gets acted upon by hardness. It is very confusing.

I wasn’t trying to just take over the whole thing but to point out…no lumping allowed. .

peace.

 

[mellowcalico]

I think it’s hard for people who have never been divorced to understand how horrible and painful it is. It’s not something most people do lightly. Where do we get this impression that it is done lightly… Hollywood and the media (both the personalities and the movies and “reality” TV shows). And we all know how that’s a reflection on how life really is.

Yes, I am divorced. My husband asked me for one two years ago. The short story is, he’s gay or at the very least has same sex attraction since he now has a boyfriend (he had a boyfriends during our engagement and out marriage too!). That was the root of the problem, but I didn’t know it at the time. He just told me he was done with the marriage, left me and our daughter (although I have to be fair and say he’s come back around on seeing her), proceeded to be very hateful toward me, started spending joint accounts, etc.

In my state, there is no legal separation (although you can have a separation agreement). We had one for about a year and a half and he chose to start ignoring it. When I went to my lawyer for help, I found out that it wasn’t enforceable by law–it was basically a civil agreement and I could try to take him to small claims court. He could literally stop paying child support and I would have no recourse except to go back to court each time. The lawyer told me a divorce would make the agreement a court order and therefore enforceable. In the meantime, I had talked to my priest, he basically told me I should seek an annulment, had a strong case, and the first step to that was civil divorce.

So between the financial irresponsibility of my husband and the advice of my priest… and yes, my own need to be somehow cut off from him (I didn’t like that I couldn’t change my Will without his permission… or if I was in an accident and lying in the hospital his hand would be on “the plug”); I filed for the divorce. It wasn’t easy, it hurt a lot, and I hated it… I hated the divorce. But on so many levels, it had to be done. I imagine this happens to a lot of people–trying separation, but finding your spouse uncooperative.

It was so painful, that I don’t even think I ever want to marry again–even if my marriage is declared invalid by the Church.

Anyway, stepping away from my story, civil divorce is required by the Church if you want them to investigate your marriage. They won’t do it if you are separated. It would be a horrible to “force” people to sin in order for the Church to do this. It makes no sense.

According the Church, I am still married (I get that part). The part I don’t get is what is so different about separation and divorce in the eyes of the some lay Catholics? It’s essentially the same state in the eyes of the Church–it just has a different legal name. In the Church you are either married, widowed, or never married. There is no “divorce.”

 

[mamaslo]

mellowcalico,
That is a good point. Divorce is only a civil matter to enforce legality. I have been on the sofa for three years and only recently did I admit to myself that was when I divorced my husband which was necessary to be recieved back into the church. We were told, even by a priest, that we needed counselling. It just didn’t make sense to hear that from a priest…especially if the church didn’t see us as married in the first place…why would you want to fix a non-existent marriage?

It has been hard and I feel for you. I feel for anyone thinking about marriage and making the right choice to do that in the beginning. I have see others choose, after being married for years, to take their vows even deeper and finding more depth in their oneness with their spouse. We are all sinners, that is why we need a savior and the grace is there but if the other person will not or cannot reach for the grace available, then you can’t force it. Grace is a gift, and being determined to take the gift. Both have to be willing. Sometimes, it is just too late. sometimes the grace cannot be gotten because…well the other person is more interested in what they want to do.

Sometimes the divorce itself is not where the sin was…it was before the divorce. Choices made against me and you.

(((Mellowcat))) you hang in there.

 

[FCGeorge]

My case is that I am in an invalid attempt at marriage and would only have to use the short form annulment.

Dear mamaslo,

You are in a very difficult situation. If your husband was married before then you are certainly not married to him. And if you are not married to him then a civil divorce does not claim to break the “indissoluble bond of a valid marriage” because there is no valid marriage.

Your situation is not representative of the majority of situations, however, and while a civil divorce may indeed be okay for you, it cannot be tolerated and does constitute a moral offense for those in valid marriages unless a true reason for separation exists and there are no other ways to ensure the necessary legal protections (i.e. a legal separation).

Catholics who except the authority of the Church as laid out in the Catechism recognize this as Truth.

God bless you and guide you to continue being a model of Christ-like love and forgiveness for your children and those around you.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

I think it’s hard for people who have never been divorced to understand how horrible and painful it is.

This is very true.

civil divorce is required by the Church if you want them to investigate your marriage. They won’t do it if you are separated. It would be a horrible to “force” people to sin in order for the Church to do this. It makes no sense.

It *is *very horrible to provide incentives for people to sin. That is why the Church does NOT require a civil divorce before asking Her to determine whether or not a marriage is valid.

You can read the Catechism and canon law and find NOTHING of this requirement. It is a man-made requirement by certain bishops in certain cultures that tolerate and except civil divorce. It is a requirement that ultimately comes from Satan himself (I realize you get labeled as a “wacko” for speaking of Satan in today’s world, but Jesus called him the “father of all lies” and this is certainly a lie).

It certainly does not make sense that our bishops require this… other than they fear the civil judges more than God. Short term it may be a wise choice on their part. However, this blink of an eye of life on this earth is very “short term.” Eternity is much longer.

The part I don’t get is what is so different about separation and divorce in the eyes of the some lay Catholics? It’s essentially the same state in the eyes of the Church…

I pray that we see that “separation” and “divorce” are most certainly NOT the “same in the eyes of the Church.”

We can read our Catechism and see that our Church tolerates separation in certain situations (St. Paul also taught us this in Sacred Scripture). But the Church specifically defines “divorce.”

Please, I pray, search the glossary of the Catechism and you will find the definition of “divorce.”

It is a “claim” that happens in our heart. When I claim to no longer be the husband to the wife to whom God joined me then I am guilty of the “grave offense” of “divorce.” Yes, this “claim” can also be made by a civil court. It is also gravely sinful for the judge to make this claim.

There is no “divorce.”

What we must say here is, “divorce does not really break the indissoluble bond that it claims to break.” There certainly is such a thing as divorce. Just as there is such a thing as adultery.

The Catechism gives us the devil’s playbook in his attack on marriage. The Catechism lists in bold two “Offenses Against The Dignity Of Marriage”… 1) Adultery & 2) Divorce. (Yes, there are other grave sins listed under this heading).

Divorce and adultery are very real. The devil, of course, would love for us to speak of them as though they are not real. Just as he loves for us to speak of him as though he is not real.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[yukonbrad]

FC George;

Your comments are appearing to be quite hurtfull to some here. I myself am going thru a civil divorce. There are a number of issues regarding the matter I will not get into here. However, as some background, we were married outside the Church, she was not Catholic but I am. Now I had concerns about divorce as it related to the Church and my Bishop put my mind at ease and many of the points you have made are in CONTRADICTION to what he has said to me.

You like to “quote” various sources but I ask you, have you had years of theological training, are you privy to the directives of the church to her Bishops? I would think a Bishop of the church is much more knowledgeable of such matters than someone who is merely quoting sources without the proper background and knowledge. I am sorry if you are offended by this but as far as I am concerned my Bishop outranks you!

 

[holyrood]

I am divorced with nine children. I finally filed after not one, not two, but three priests had said outright they would petition for annulment if I divorced him. One of them told me in no uncertain terms that this was not a marriage and to go to counseling ‘to get strong enough to do what you need to do.’ I took his advice. I got counseling, including a therapy typically used for PTSD.

I am the queen of second-guessing myself, but I prayed a great deal about the decision and have had complete peace since making it. I did everything in my power to offer him every possible chance to change what he was up to and rebuild the marriage. He chose not to. I feel I heard God’s will very clearly in saying it was time, and I’ll rarely say that I heard God tell me something directly. But it felt very strong and direct.

Thank goodness I did. There was no physical abuse. I couldn’t prove he’d slept with anyone except a one night stand years previously when we’d been divorced. But the emotional, psychological, and other damage he was doing was real. The kids were now seeing their father sleep in a basement, because I couldn’t trust him not to pass a disease onto me, for all his lies. I don’t think that was good for them.

Only when divorce proceedings finally forced him to reveal everything did I find out that he was nearly his entire annual income in debt. I’d spent years spending every penny I earned trying to keep up and feeling pressured to take on more work hours (more time away from my kids, more time the older kids had to babysit the younger ones). Seeing what he’d really been up to, I realized I never would have caught up, that I was carrying way more financial weight than I’d known, that he was letting household bills go unpaid and collecting late fees everywhere. I believe we would eventually have lost the house, and I can guarantee there’s no apartment or townhouse big enough to rent that would have held this many people. We couldn’t have afforded to rent a house big enough.

The house is now in my name, the bills are paid, and I feel safer and more secure financially than I have in years, plus, I don’t have to worry about what he’s doing with women or listen to him tearing me down. He’s just around the corner where the kids see him many times per week.

I used to think divorce happened too lightly, but unfortunately, after seeing story after story after story just like mine and even much worse, on the infidelity board I frequent, I sadly think that maybe the real problem is people treat each other far too poorly and behave too irresponsibly for most marriages to survive in a world where people no longer feel they have no choice but to put up with these sorts of things.

 

[holyrood]

BTW, I haven’t read the entire thread, I apologize if the point has been made repeatedly, but I have been told and read over and over that DIVORCE ITSELF is not a sin of any sort. It’s re-marrying without getting an annulment first that constitutes adultery.

I have also never seen any option anywhere to have the Church investigate the validity of a marriage without divorce.

 

[FCGeorge]

Hello Holyrood,
When you are told the lie that “divorce itself is not a sin” then you can ask…

What other non-sinful actions does our Catechism call

1. An offense against the dignity of marriage
2. A grave offense against the natural law
3. Immoral
4. A plague

Any faithful Catholic will acknowledge that divorce is all of these things. Our Catechism tells us so.

I am still curious of all those who want to defend civil divorce. Why did the Catholic clergy of Malta fight so vehemently against legalizing civil divorce this past year? Now that it is legalized in their country do you think they will change their tune and start saying, “Hey, there is nothing wrong with civil divorce. Faithful Catholics can do it whenever they feel bad enough in their marriage and feel they need to get out!!”

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING

 

[FCGeorge]

There are MANY stories of priests and even bishops tolerating and even sometimes encouraging a civil divorce. This does not make it right. St Jerome declared that although the world is full of priests, barely one in a hundred is living in a manner of conformity to his priesthood. St. Chrysostom said that the floor of Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. It would not surprise me that you could find only one priest in one hundred willing to define divorce as our Catechism defines it and willing to call divorce the grave sin that it is. It wouldnt have surprised St. Jerome either.

We can trust the Catechism that our Church has given us. We only need to be theologians to find rationalizations and justifications for why it is somehow good for me to do that which our Catechism plainly calls bad.

Yes, there are indeed instances when a civil divorce can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. I am not claiming that anyone on here is not in one of those situations.

God will be the witness between thee and the wife of thy youth. If we deal treacherously against her… even at the prodding of a priest concerned for our happiness more than our holiness… then we will be held accountable. It would not be truly charitable to avoid speaking this message.

Again… I am NOT accusing anyone in particular of doing this.

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING