Are you considering civil divorce?

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FCGeorge, I agree with you that priests and bishops are capable of giving poor advice, which is why I didn’t race out to file the first time a priest told me this–even though, at that point, my husband had walked out and left me for 8 months with three small children. I prayed for a miracle, forgave, paid off the debt he’d run up while he was gone, and tried to start over.

Honestly, I look back over the years, knowing all I now know about what he was up to, and I believe that first priest was right. I believe this has never been a valid marriage. If it had been, certainly years of weekly fasting, daily Rosaries, weekly Perpetual Adoration, and even making a pilgrimage to Medjugorje would have brought about the miracles in his heart needed to save it.

And I’ll be honest, as much as I respect your attempt to stand for what you believe is true, I feel and believe it would have been much worse to let my children become homeless, and when I saw how much debt my ex-husband had gotten us into, I understood, at that moment, the inner urgings I had, as I prayed, that I must file NOW, because that was what I felt, almost heard, as I prayed; NOW. In stark, capital letters, with a sense of urgency.

And as I said, though I can second-guess myself over even the most minor of decisions, I have been utterly at peace with this one, and have felt my faith and my love for God only growing and deepening since filing.

I see that you say several times that you’re not accusing any one particular person of anything, that you agree there are some dire circumstances in which it is tolerable. But I guess my question for you is, what would you like to accomplish with this thread? Can you see why many people *would *feel attacked?

My guess is that on this particular board especially, most people who are divorced or going through one or considering one do have quite serious reasons.

If all the sources over the years which have told me and plenty of other Catholics that a divorced Catholic may still take communion, that they are not in mortal sin, that it is remarriage that is the problem–if these sources are wrong, then you need to be taking this problem to the bishops, not to a forum, because if that many people are wrong and spreading disinformation, this is not the place to solve it.

In the meantime, I guess I personally am at peace with God, knowing I did what I legally had to do to protect my children.
 
Perhaps the Catechism is not convincing to some. The Vicar of Christ may be.

From Pope Leo XIII’s Arcanum…
  1. Truly,it is hardly possible to describe how great are the evils that flow from divorce. Matrimonial contracts are by it made variable; mutual kindness is weakened; deplorable inducements to unfaithfulness are supplied; harm is done to the education and training of children; occasion is afforded for the breaking up of homes; the seeds of dissension are sown among families; the dignity of womanhood is lessened and brought low,and women run the risk of being deserted after having ministered to the pleasures of men. Since,then,nothing has such power to lay waste families and destroy the mainstay of kingdoms as the corruption of morals,it is easily seen that divorces are in the highest degree hostile to the prosperity of families and States, springing as they do from the depraved morals of the people,and,as experience shows us,opening out a way to every kind of evil-doing in public and in private life.
  2. Further still,if the matter be duly pondered,we shall clearly see these evils to be the more especially dangerous,because,divorce once being tolerated,there will be no restraint powerful enough to keep it within the bounds marked out or presurmised. Great indeed is the force of example,and even greater still the might of passion. With such incitements it must needs follow that the eagerness for divorce, daily spreading by devious ways,will seize upon the minds of many like a virulent contagious disease,or like a flood of water bursting through every barrier. These are truths that doubtlessly are all clear in themselves,but they will become clearer yet if we call to mind the teachings of experience. So soon as the road to divorce began to be made smooth by law,at once quarrels,jealousies,and judicial separations largely increased; and such shamelessness of life followed that men who had been in favor of these divorces repented of what they had done,and feared that,if they did not carefully seek a remedy by repealing the law,the State itself might come to ruin. The Romans of old are said to have shrunk with horror from the first example of divorce, but ere long all sense of decency was blunted in their soul; the meager restraint of passion died out,and the marriage vow was so often broken that what some writers have affirmed would seem to be true-namely,women used to reckon years not by the change of consuls,but of their husbands. In like manner,at the beginning, Protestants allowed legalized divorces in certain although but few cases,and yet from the affinity of circumstances of like kind,the number of divorces increased to such extent in Germany,America,and elsewhere that all wise thinkers deplored the boundless corruption of morals,and judged the recklessness of the laws to be simply intolerable.
  3. Even in Catholic States the evil existed. For whenever at any time divorce was introduced,the abundance of misery that followed far exceeded all that the framers of the law could have foreseen. In fact,many lent their minds to contrive all kinds of fraud and device,and by accusations of cruelty,violence,and adultery to feign grounds for the dissolution of the matrimonial bond of which they had grown weary; and all this with so great havoc to morals that an amendment of the laws was deemed to be urgently needed.
  4. Can anyone,therefore,doubt that laws in favor of divorce would have a result equally baneful and calamitous were they to be passed in these our days?
Now, shall we obey the One Whom Jesus Christ appointed the leader of the Church or shall we listen to the modern priests and bishops who teach that “divorce itself is not a sin… only remarriage?”

Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Bryan,

What is your ultimate goal; what do you hope to achieve, with this thread?
 
Hello Holyrood,

The devil is the father of all lies. He is a “prowling lion” who attempts “devour our souls” by sowing his seeds of lies into our hearts and minds. Our hearts and minds are fertile soil for these lies when we desire to achieve our own will, our self-will, rather than our Heavenly Father’s perfect and holy will.

The lies grow in our hearts and minds and produce scales that cover our eyes and prevent us from seeing the Truth. The scales seem to cover the backs of the eye so that we “see without seeing.”

I am not sure that there is a better example of this than the devil’s attack on marriage. Many of the lies he uses to break down the family and claim a multitude of souls are related to divorce. Our culture is almost completely blind to the evil of divorce as we have traveled into a deep darkness.

As part of the penance for my first confession I was given the prayer of St. Francis. In it we ask to be made “an instrument” of our God. We offer ourselves to be “a light” wherever there is “darkness.”

The salvation of souls is the only purpose. I realize that I personally cannot save souls. I am admittedly not even a bishop or any powerful or “learned” person. I do not have any authority of my own. I am only a sinner seeking sanctity. If there is any Truth to the light that is shining here then it is not a light that originates with me. For all Truth is from God.

If out of the 1,000 views this thread has had there have been scales fall from the eyes of just one soul then it has been worth it. I dont expect it from those who believe they have already “found” that divorce is morally acceptable. But perhaps someone whose conscience is still causing them to seek will find.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING
 
Ok Brian, the fact is that divorce is part of our culture in the world. Probably all over the world. As Catholics we should hate it just like God hates it. But that doesn’t mean we have to stay in an abusive relationship (whether mental, emotional, spiritual, or physical). Due to the fact that protestants and catholics have allowed for such to endoctrinate our legal system…the problem has always been a lack of catechesis and acceptance of what marriage IS. Protestants have an errant way of looking at divorce in scripture and thus…find it horrible but acceptable and with forgiveness they are good to go again…

They are wrong but really, in this generation, it is not their fault. Catholics my age were raised knowing it is wrong but with very little training on what marriage is, until the holy spirit moves and we learn on our own about what the catechism says about marriage, we just do not know how to carry out things in real life.

So people attempt lots of marriages these days and often they are invalid for a myriad of reasons…even if someone keeps it secret. Too many liars in the world and not enough who care about sanctity. Not enough people who will lay down their lives and ask God for conversion.

The problems with divorce are indeed given birth in our society to something that is acceptable. The problem isn’t the divorce though…it comes way before that.

The Catholic Church “gets” that we are in a state of culture that has so much liberalisation of “morals” it has boiled down to “as long as it doesn’t hurt someone else it is ok” or “if it feels good do it”.

I don’t think people have truly contridicted your points but you come across as self-righteous and pharisaical not because what you are presenting is wrong but the spirit in which you are presenting it jumps over the real reason why divorce is even happening.

Yes, divorce is evil. It destroys people…children, men, women…generations to come. But why is it ok? Not because the law says it’s ok or because the church in America says you have to have one before you can even consider an annulment, but because we are not taught anything but relativity. Men are not laying down their lives (as a culture) for their wife and children or their neighbor or God. Their pride gets in the way. Women are not submitting because…what is there to submit to? When people either way have conversion and “see the light” they grab onto God the Catechism, the church the scripture and it changes their lives…sometimes the spouse comes along and other times…they say “harumph, this isn’t what I signed up for, you are not allowed to change anything” until there is so much heartbreak, and hardness of heart…it turns abusive. I would rather have the quiet rejection than active abuse.

But mostly, I would rather have the beauty in what the church says about marriage…it is hard work, it is beautiful but in the end both need the conversion to walk that path together.

Be careful of your goal, sir. I think the commentary you have presented is right but it doesn’t fix the matter or even attempt to.
 
**2383 **The *separation *of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
 
Guys, stop responding. He is just looking to try to guilt others and feel like he is the authority or feel morally superior to others. It is classic self-righteousness. He doesn’t know other people’s situations and thinks he should be the one to call the shots on matters he knows nothing about and I would trust your priest or bishop way over him.
 
I’ll agree that people shouldn’t just bail out of a marriage, as many currently do. This is especially true if children are involved.

However, I feel the Puritanical approach is being taken in this thread. Those who have been the victim of a divorce certainly understand, which is why some find this thread offense. I’m one of those people.

Did God really want me to remain celibate, childless, and alone for the rest of my life? Are you really saying that God does not guide such people to another caring spouse of the same religion, and to impoverished, abandoned children that need a home that would otherwise never be Roman Catholic?

This could have never happened without a divorce.
 
I think God wants us to get to heaven. Sometimes we have to stand up for what is right and stand firm…our church believes in the dignity of the whole human person. I don’t think that “Brian, Love so Amazing” is doing that with his commentary.

I understand why it would even be brought up, but the approach is all wrong. I do agree with the church but if the church has it also written “clauses” that are graceful ways to escape damage to the dignity of the whole person…then “Brian, Love so Amazing” could use a bit more reading and learning.

So far I have not seen a single response that said they jumped for joy all the way to the divorce court.

The Church made a way for us and I don’t think a single divorced person on this thread would tell you that it isn’t at some point a sin. Mostly, leading up to the divorce is the sin part. How a person treated the wife or husband and children…their finances, their well being, their health, their bodies, their belongings, their homes, their souls…
 
mamaslo said:
The problems with divorce are indeed given birth in our society to something that is acceptable. The problem isn’t the divorce though…it comes way before that.

…

I don’t think people have truly contridicted your points but you come across as self-righteous and pharisaical not because what you are presenting is wrong but the spirit in which you are presenting it jumps over the real reason why divorce is even happening.

Yes, divorce is evil. It destroys people…children, men, women…generations to come. But why is it ok? Not because the law says it’s ok or because the church in America says you have to have one before you can even consider an annulment, but because we are not taught anything but relativity. Men are not laying down their lives (as a culture) for their wife and children or their neighbor or God. Their pride gets in the way. Women are not submitting because…what is there to submit to?

…

Be careful of your goal, sir. I think the commentary you have presented is right but it doesn’t fix the matter or even attempt to.
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Mamaslo says much of what I also feel. Bryan, you talk about divorce harming women and children…but often enough those women and children were being harmed within the marriage already.

I can look at my own parents’ marriage, in which he was hitting her on and off, in addition to being an alcoholic. They are now in their 70s, they both snipe at and about each other constantly, my mother is bitter and resentful from years of his abuse, and his alcoholism and her self-loathing as a result of years of his abuse, and the resulting dysfunction among their children has torn the family apart. I firmly believe there was one final moment in which my mother stood at a fork in the road: continue putting up with him or kick him out. I believe it was the defining moment in which she could have started on the path to self respect and saving myself and my siblings from all that has followed. She chose to stay with him instead.

It seems to me that it’s often a case of nothing but bad answers. I agree completely with all you say about divorce being harmful and producing so many bad results. But I can’t say that staying in some of these marriages is any better. I do believe there are plenty of cases in which it’s even worse.
 
LSK said:
**2383 **The *separation *of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.

If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
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Thank you. I hate to harp on my own situation, but I firmly believe that divorce was the only way to legally protect my children from becoming homeless. It’s only one situation among many that would require divorce.
 
mamaslo said:
The Church made a way for us and I don’t think a single divorced person on this thread would tell you that it isn’t at some point a sin. Mostly, leading up to the divorce is the sin part. How a person treated the wife or husband and children…their finances, their well being, their health, their bodies, their belongings, their homes, their souls…
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I don’t consider the divorce part the sin at all. The sin is upon the person, or persons, that refuse to reconcile and cause the divorce in the first place. I feel very, very sorry for the spouse that is a victim. Divorce allows them to stop being a victim.
 
ValPal said:
I don’t consider the divorce part the sin at all. The sin is upon the person, or persons, that refuse to reconcile and cause the divorce in the first place. I feel very, very sorry for the spouse that is a victim. Divorce allows them to stop being a victim.
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Exactly.
 
mamaslo said:
Exactly.
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Regardless of what you think about Bryan’s motivations (I find them to be pure and well-intentioned), it is entirely possible that a divorce action in itself is manifestly sinful. Canon law demands that except in cases of imminent danger to a spouse or children, a spouse seeking to disrupt the conjugal life (just physically separate) must seek approval from the local ordinary, and even then are called to reconcile. Divorce is another whole leap to make from there.

Divorce is horrible. Encouraging people to eschew it except in cases where it represents the only way to ensure the safety of the spouse or children is laudable, not deridable.

Except in those exceedingly rare cases of true abuse, the civil divorce will not be fair to anyone, most especially to the children and to their father (yes, I mean father), by any scale informed by Catholicism. Anyone proffering consult to the contrary is at best an ignorant fool and at worst a charlatan trying to sell you something.

To those who have endured the type of true abuse to which I refer above, please know that you are in my prayers, regardless of the path you’ve chosen. Same for those who’ve chosen divorce when it was not warranted.
 
I read over some posts. While I agree that divorce is not always the right solution, the CC should realize that there are some marriages that are so toxic that the offspring that come thereforth of such a union suffer anxiety, PTS and other mental illnesses. I firmly believe that the Lord wants us to enjoy our marriage but in some instances there are people who are so adamant that change is impossible (eg addictions of any sort, abuse of any sort).

I suffered a lot of abuse from my spouse and when I went to the CC for help, I found none except to endure and change myself so that maybe he will change for the better. I endured to the detriment of my dignity and self-image. He changed but then so have I. I realized that I love him but there is NO CONFIDENCE in him. I am always afraid of getting hurt. I don’t want to be around him or my eldest who has picked up on our negative communication. I am sad that I did not have the courage to seek a legal separation at least. The CC left me in the lurch like it left so many abused women. It stuck to its canon laws and did not use compassion or the spirit of the law. I am ashamed and hurt at the numerous people who have suffered as a direct result of the CC’s stance on the laws governing church marriage.

Everyone speaks of the sin of divorce and that once you divorce you may never remarry? What if your spouse leaves for another? What if they have an addiction and you need to save your house and belongings? What if you are being so mistreated that it is causing serious mental and spiritual stress? The list can go on and on. So you must suffer this and then you are not allowed to find love in a better person? The outcome looked so grim for me. I do not want to leave the church but I have thought if it would be better if I did.
 
I am curious to know if there are any groups that deal with Catholic Separation or Divorce. I know none here in my area. Perhaps with an existing group, I am looking into developing one, but I need a model that works.

I am sorry if I come off negative. I am going through a low point in my life right now. I should be grateful for the good things that I have, but when you have a child that is confrontational and abusive in their speech to you, it is hard to find joy. My only joy is that my younger child does not do this; however I am seeing some traits coming out.

Often I feel it is my fault because I exposed them to our toxic relationship. I could only pray and resist depression or fighting. Help me please. God Bless.
 
hurting said:
Regardless of what you think about Bryan’s motivations (I find them to be pure and well-intentioned), it is entirely possible that a divorce action in itself is manifestly sinful. Canon law demands that except in cases of imminent danger to a spouse or children, a spouse seeking to disrupt the conjugal life (just physically separate) must seek approval from the local ordinary, and even then are called to reconcile. Divorce is another whole leap to make from there.
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Canon Law is only binding on Catholics. If the spouse that leaves is not Catholic, that spouse is not obligated to notify the Catholic Church of anything.
 
Still_Hoping said:
I am curious to know if there are any groups that deal with Catholic Separation or Divorce. I know none here in my area. Perhaps with an existing group, I am looking into developing one, but I need a model that works.

I am sorry if I come off negative. I am going through a low point in my life right now. I should be grateful for the good things that I have, but when you have a child that is confrontational and abusive in their speech to you, it is hard to find joy. My only joy is that my younger child does not do this; however I am seeing some traits coming out.

Often I feel it is my fault because I exposed them to our toxic relationship. I could only pray and resist depression or fighting. Help me please. God Bless.
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There is one right here online on this forum. Feel free to click the link in my signature block. Also, I know in my old diocese there were a few. I guess it depends on the area.
 
Still_Hoping said:
I read over some posts. While I agree that divorce is not always the right solution, the CC should realize that there are some marriages that are so toxic that the offspring that come thereforth of such a union suffer anxiety, PTS and other mental illnesses. I firmly believe that the Lord wants us to enjoy our marriage but in some instances there are people who are so adamant that change is impossible (eg addictions of any sort, abuse of any sort).

I suffered a lot of abuse from my spouse and when I went to the CC for help, I found none except to endure and change myself so that maybe he will change for the better. I endured to the detriment of my dignity and self-image. He changed but then so have I. I realized that I love him but there is NO CONFIDENCE in him. I am always afraid of getting hurt. I don’t want to be around him or my eldest who has picked up on our negative communication. I am sad that I did not have the courage to seek a legal separation at least. The CC left me in the lurch like it left so many abused women. It stuck to its canon laws and did not use compassion or the spirit of the law. I am ashamed and hurt at the numerous people who have suffered as a direct result of the CC’s stance on the laws governing church marriage.

Everyone speaks of the sin of divorce and that once you divorce you may never remarry? What if your spouse leaves for another? What if they have an addiction and you need to save your house and belongings? What if you are being so mistreated that it is causing serious mental and spiritual stress? The list can go on and on. So you must suffer this and then you are not allowed to find love in a better person? The outcome looked so grim for me. I do not want to leave the church but I have thought if it would be better if I did.
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I am sorry that the people in the CC treated you this way. Sometimes people are not always a reflection of the Church teaching which is this on abuse.
 
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