Are you considering civil divorce?

[Oh_Charlotte]

Am I considering? I wish I knew…

Married for 20 years this past May, I always had no doubt that I was a “marriage for life” soul… And indeed, I am. But I am also human… Imperfect… And i’m suffering greatly.

15 months ago… July 17th, 2011… My wife removed her rings and proclaimed our marriage over. Every day since, I have been hoping, praying, listening, loving… and dying (or so it seems)… while I wait for… Something.

We share the same house; we share the same bed… But we share nothing more.

I work two jobs, while she has no source of income… Which is the only reason she won’t leave.

The kids no nothing (13 & 16)… And she sees her lover while I work. She has carried in with him now for almost three years. He is twice divorced, having divorced his second wife in favor of mine.

Am I considering civil divorce? Of course I am… But I struggle every day to carry this cross… And I pray that when I fall, Christ will have mercy in my sorry soul.

Of course there is a lot more to this story… And I am no saint. In fact I blame myself gully for this horrible lot.

Clay

I think you should read James Dobson’s Love Must Be Tough. I think you are making it too easy for her to have this affair – its almost like you are paying for it, by being gone at work, and providing financial comfort to her life, so she can sin. That makes you enabling the sin. Not good for either of you. This certainly sounds like a separation is in order. Then the kids can know why. Your keeping her secret from the kids also cushions her to continue in the sin. They are old enough to know, IMO. I mean in a matter of fact way, once you have your advice and plan, telling them, Mom has chosen to carry on this way and it is a mortal sin and an affront to our marraige so I cannot have her live in this house right now. I love her but I don’t love what she is doing.

That’s my opinion, but really, you need some professional advice. Its sure sounds like you are just helping this happen! Then take your professional advice to a holy priest and see if it fits Catholic morals. You can also call Focus on the Family counseling hotline. They will talk to you for quite awhile free. That is James Dobson’s organization, and though Protestant, they work to try to keep families together. And I suspect keeping your wife at home is tearing your family apart. So it might be good to find out if I am not the only one who thinks that she should be KICKED OUT!

 

[hurting]

This is just my opinion, but I think the reason why women more often file for divorce is because of two issues.

1. I think men are more violent than women–at least, statistically if you look at crimes committed. That’s not to say all men are violent and no women are, but given 100 men and 100 women in a room, I think you will find more of the men to have abusive tendencies.
2. In the past, women had no where to go if they left a marriage. If they left, they were destitute and homeless and in most cases, they lost their children unless they were wealthy. But more and more women are become the breadwinners or at least can hold their own with a job. So if you are a woman who can make money on her own AND you have an abusive spouse, you’d be more inclined to not “take it” anymore and leave.

Now to be clear, I know some women (and some men) leave marriages for flimsy reasons. But I think you have to look at biology mixed with today’s modern world.

And to those keep keep talking about women wanting alimony and mothers “stealing” custody–I urge you to at least reference your state laws before repeating claims. It’s true that there was a horrible injustice towards men in a lot of those cases and some of those decrees are still in effect; but most states have done away with those antiquated laws.

Mothers don’t automatically “get” custody, the default in most states is shared custody unless there is a problem with abuse (or if one parent doesn’t want custody like in the case with my Ex). To be fair, I should note some judges are old fashion and if there is a dispute (and if the child is very young–like still nursing for example–they often favor the mother. But it’s not “automatic” and it’s not “forever.” A father can go back and have custody altered so he has more custody. Alimony is a thing of the past too… now they call it spousal support and men can get it from ex wives now. It’s also now limited in nature and not permanent–it’s just supposed to be enough to get a spouse back on his or her feet if they made sacrifices on their career for the sake of the marriage.

There are so many factual errors here that I don’t have time to address them. I would simply ask that you educate yourself. The data do not bear out that men are more violent than women overall, nor is there any state to my way of understanding that has a presumption of shared leagal and physical custody. I have the pay stubs to prove to you that alimony is absolutely not a thing of the past, at it’s far worse in some states than in my own. I truly have never seen such ignorance flouted as fact.

 

[hurting]

You missed my point. A homogenous society is one where people have common belief systems that can be reflected in law. It’s the reason you can effectively ban divorce in a country such as the Philippines but not here. Many non-Catholics believe in divorce, and the law has to allow for that. That leads to a chain reaction of events.

The problem is that the Church will not take action and stand up for marriage. Same sex unions are not a hundredth the threat to the institution of marriage that domestic relations law in this country is, but the Church is far more vocal in its objection to the former than the latter.

That’s a striking allegation you’re making against the Church. Maybe people in the U.S. should just become like other western countries and just walk away from the Church…that’ll reduce the number of annulments, for sure.

This is a non sequitur.

 

[mellowcalico]

There are so many factual errors here that I don’t have time to address them. I would simply ask that you educate yourself. The data do not bear out that men are more violent than women overall, nor is there any state to my way of understanding that has a presumption of shared leagal and physical custody. I have the pay stubs to prove to you that alimony is absolutely not a thing of the past, at it’s far worse in some states than in my own. I truly have never seen such ignorance flouted as fact.

I never said it was fact, I said, “In my opinion.” The reason I say men in general are more violent is because more are arrested for violent crime. And again, that’s is just my opinion but to me, it seems that men are more confrontational in general.

35 of the 50 States have joint custody as the “default” custody arrangement according to the Alliance of Non-Custodial Parents. But you are most likely right on physical custody–mainly because someone usually moves out of a school district. If you move away, the amount of time you have with your kids will probably change for logistical reasons. Custody is also not written in stone and can be altered. Seems like ever week in my divorce support group there is talk from mothers and fathers about changing custody. One father ended up with total custody of both of his kids recently–it was a trail for him, but he is a great parent and was able to prove it. Back just 20 years ago, he wouldn’t have been able to stand a chance due to the simple fact that he was the dad, not the mom… that’s the kind of thing that’s changing.

I didn’t say alimony is a thing of the past. I said most states are doing away with antiquated laws regarding alimony (such as alimony for life). In most states don’t even recognize “alimony” any more, it’s “spousal support” which means either a man or woman might have to pay it. It’s also being limited in length and amount as well.

 

[mellowcalico]

You know, I was just talking to a divorced father that I know and showed him this thread. I think he explained a bit to me about where I might have flaws in my thinking–and what he said makes sense. I just get tired of this stereotype that women marry and divorce for money.

He said he didn’t think that women married with the intent of divorcing for money… but when things go south and divorce is pretty much the outcome, then they get more focused on money.

He also said that both men and women cheat just as much (and I believe that). He contended that women are more psychologically abusive than men and that he thinks men are ashamed to admit that (so it’s hidden). Plus it’s hard to prove.

He kind of agreed on me on the alimony thing… but legal wise. But on a practical level, he claimed that 90% of men that qualify for alimony but refuse it. However only 10% of women do.

Anyway, I just thought I would put that out there since it pokes holes in my opinion… so I thought it was worth adding to what I already posted.

 

[hurting]

You know, I was just talking to a divorced father that I know and showed him this thread. I think he explained a bit to me about where I might have flaws in my thinking–and what he said makes sense. I just get tired of this stereotype that women marry and divorce for money.

He said he didn’t think that women married with the intent of divorcing for money… but when things go south and divorce is pretty much the outcome, then they get more focused on money.

He also said that both men and women cheat just as much (and I believe that). He contended that women are more psychologically abusive than men and that he thinks men are ashamed to admit that (so it’s hidden). Plus it’s hard to prove.

He kind of agreed on me on the alimony thing… but legal wise. But on a practical level, he claimed that 90% of men that qualify for alimony but refuse it. However only 10% of women do.

Anyway, I just thought I would put that out there since it pokes holes in my opinion… so I thought it was worth adding to what I already posted.

Thank you for your candor. I think you may still be mistaken on the idea that joint custody is the default arrangement. Per the ABA americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/family_law_quarterly/vol45/4win12_chart2_custody.authcheckdam.pdf
13 of 50 states have a presumption of joint custody, but the devil is in the details as in at least two of these states (Minnesota and Mississippi), the presumption only exists where the parents agree. Further, the system in all fifty states should be changed to reflect a presumption of shared physical and legal custody so as to prevent the perverse incentives to divorce.

 

[hurting]

I never said it was fact, I said, “In my opinion.” The reason I say men in general are more violent is because more are arrested for violent crime. And again, that’s is just my opinion but to me, it seems that men are more confrontational in general.

35 of the 50 States have joint custody as the “default” custody arrangement according to the Alliance of Non-Custodial Parents. But you are most likely right on physical custody–mainly because someone usually moves out of a school district. If you move away, the amount of time you have with your kids will probably change for logistical reasons. Custody is also not written in stone and can be altered. Seems like ever week in my divorce support group there is talk from mothers and fathers about changing custody. One father ended up with total custody of both of his kids recently–it was a trail for him, but he is a great parent and was able to prove it. Back just 20 years ago, he wouldn’t have been able to stand a chance due to the simple fact that he was the dad, not the mom… that’s the kind of thing that’s changing.

It’s not changing in any meaningful way. The plural of anecdote is not data.

I didn’t say alimony is a thing of the past. I said most states are doing away with antiquated laws regarding alimony (such as alimony for life). In most states don’t even recognize “alimony” any more, it’s “spousal support” which means either a man or woman might have to pay it. It’s also being limited in length and amount as well.

Alimony and spousal support are essentilly interchangeable terms. Regardless of the term, it has no place whatsoever in a no-fault divorce. What other type of contract can you enter where a party can seek its dissolution while claiming no breach on the part of the other party (or at least no more breach than the suing party) and demand (and routinely get) the party who doesn’t desire dissolution to have to continue to perform under the contract?

 

[dove50]

We can’t be so quick to judge those who divorce in the Catholic Church. I am recently divorced due to an abusive marriage. We are going through the annulment process right now and will let the church decide. I carry unfounded guilt because of judgmental Catholics who look down upon me because I am divorced without knowing all or any of the details regarding our circumstances. I agonized for years on what the right decision was regarding whether or not to end our marriage. We were in counseling a long time.I Lets pull the beam out of our own eyes before we are so “quick to judge”. I thought Jesus was the only judge? God can forgive anything and will heal our broken hearts. HIs grace is sufficient

 

[His_helpmeet]

To my understanding, the Church will permit divorce in some situations if it is necessary for the protection of the spouse and children (e.g. in a situation of abuse or spousal abandonment). However, it must be remembered that a civil divorce only ends the legal contract of marriage; it has no bearing on spiritual matters.

A divorced Catholic who is living chastely and has not remarried is permitted to receive Holy Communion. If the person wishes to remarry, however, a declaration of nullity is required.

I am my husband’s second wife. His first “wife” only married him because they were pregnant and they wanted to do right by their daughter, left him after 4 years of marriage (literally walked out the door and told him she wasn’t coming back), and told him that as far as she was concerned, the marriage vows she took were just symbolic and didn’t really mean anything, marriage was glorified common-law with ceremonial benefits, and if she wasn’t happy, she reserved the right to walk away. (BTW, neither was Catholic when they were married, and they were married in a civil ceremony. My husband converted about a year after they were married, and his ex converted some time after that, although she is no longer practicing.) My husband is absolutely wonderful. He was NEVER abusive towards her and I can say that with all honesty because he has NEVER abused me. He sought a civil divorce as a way to move on with his life - particularly after his ex moved in with another man, got pregnant by him, and got engaged to him, all of which occurred while she was still legally married to my husband.

My husband began the annulment process approximately 3 months after the divorce was finalized. (It is a requirement here for a divorce certificate to be provided in order to ensure that the couple have no plans to reconcile.) He received a declaration of nullity (obviously the marriage was not valid - she didn’t understand the nature of marriage, and they only married because of the pressure of her pregnancy) and we were sacramentally married about 4 months after that.

 

[davidedwards]

The Church does not officially require a civil divorce before accepting an annulment petition. But canon lawyer Edward Peters explains that virtually every tribunal in America requires proof of civil divorce because “many tribunals apparently fear that they can be sued by irate spouses for ‘alienation of affection.’” Peters thinks this reason is “quite unsatisfying,” but he holds that “a civil divorce is a practical way of determining that there is no realistic hope of reconciling the parties, something tribunal judges are required to verify as part of every tribunal case” (Peters, Annulments and the Catholic Church, 50). Note also that the Catechism states, "If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense

 

[YADA]

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

I received a declaration of nullity about a year and a half ago.

I was civilly married for 8 years.

My parish priest, and every single person I talked to REFUSED to even talk to me about getting a case started for nullity until I was officially, civilly divorced.

Can someone please explain that to me?

Once I became Catholic and learned about marriage, I KNEW that my marriage was invalid.

BUT, what if a couple was having issues, and one or both of them suspects this, but aren’t sure, yet the Church won’t investigate the matter until a civil divorce occurs? I just don’t get it at all.

Because marriage has two components … one is civil and one is sacramental … the Church could investigate the sacramental aspect and then what? If say because one spouse lied about being open to life and singularly committed - and the other party was compelled against their will into the marriage because the couple was expecting a child - no sacramental union exists … but the civil marriage does … this order of events could be far more injurious to all the parties involved.

Similarly - if one party to a civil marriage was previously married and that marriage had not ended [in death or divorce] then - when that matter came to light - no matter how married the couple might feel - nor how happy and contented … the civil authorities would issue a decree of nullity [an annulment] because in the eyes of the state - no marriage took place …

People tend to forget that civil authorities also issue annulments …

Since - marriages - in a civil sense - impact legal realms like the matters relating to parental and spousal rights [to inheritances, care and support of children and spouses] taxes, ownership of assets, during the marriage and even after the divorce, etc …all unrelated to the spiritual well being of the parties involved - the Church defers its investigation until the civil action is completed …

Also - do not forget - the Church acts as an agent of the State in the ceremony … she not only witnesses the marriage from the spiritual aspect - but also the civil … the priests and deacons are recognized and certified - by the civil authorities - to perform the marriage … but the same authority is not granted on the reverse … the Church cannot rule on the civil dissolution whether by annulment or divorce - only the sacramental … thus the church performs both aspects initially - but can only investigate one aspect at that juncture …

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

We can’t be so quick to judge those who divorce in the Catholic Church. I am recently divorced due to an abusive marriage. We are going through the annulment process right now and will let the church decide. I carry unfounded guilt because of judgmental Catholics who look down upon me because I am divorced without knowing all or any of the details regarding our circumstances. I agonized for years on what the right decision was regarding whether or not to end our marriage. We were in counseling a long time.I Lets pull the beam out of our own eyes before we are so “quick to judge”. I thought Jesus was the only judge? God can forgive anything and will heal our broken hearts. HIs grace is sufficient

Bless you dove50 :heaven:for your courage, and please know that many of us have gone through the process of annulment and understand how you feel. I have been through this and just wanted to say that I hope you won’t blame yourself or further agonize over the past. Holy Church has Christ’s power to loose or bind, and in my case, it was actually very enlightening to bring my case before the Tribunal, made of up holy and sensitive people who looked into everything and brought me through the process safely. God’s love will always triumph, no matter what, and you are beloved of Our Father Who knows all the secrets of our hearts.:angel1:
I hope everything turns out well for you.
Blessings!

 

[holyrood]

Alimony and spousal support are essentilly interchangeable terms. Regardless of the term, it has no place whatsoever in a no-fault divorce. What other type of contract can you enter where a party can seek its dissolution while claiming no breach on the part of the other party (or at least no more breach than the suing party) and demand (and routinely get) the party who doesn’t desire dissolution to have to continue to perform under the contract?

The difference is, in marriage there are more often than not children, and a wife who has given up fifteen, twenty, or more years of career-building that would have supported her in her old age, in order to raise the couple’s children, in order to be at home so the husband could work to provide for the family. These are years that can never be recovered. Generally, it’s difficult to impossible to start a good job at the age of 40 or 50 with very little experience in the work force.

FWIW, I was married 24 years, held nothing but part time jobs all that time exactly so that I could be home with the kids. I always put XH’s job first, as he was supporting us. I received no alimony because I was deemed able to care for myself. In truth, I am, but in principle, I find it a little stunning that I can give up 24 years of building a career so that he can build his, be all but forced to file for divorce due to his breaches of contract, and be told too bad.

Also, consider that many times either there’s no option but no-fault divorce, or infidelity (or whatever other issues there were) are so hard to prove that it’s not worth the effort. I have a ‘no-fault’ divorce legally, but it most certainly is no such thing. He committed *many *breaches of the marital contract. I believe I will be granted an annulment on several grounds. The stress, lies, and mind games were slowly destroying me. It was so bad by the end that I sat at a green light afraid to move because I no longer trusted my own perceptions after all his gaslighting.

 

[nevaehniko]

My husband I started dating while he was legally seperated. At the time, we did not think that this was a sin, since the seperation was legal and he had been seperated from his wife for over a year. She had my husband let out of her house by gunpoint because he did not want to do drugs with her. She had cheated on him since after they were married. They did have one son (who know lives with us).

There were a few times when we would try to go to baptist church. We were looked down and and told many times that we were living in sin. We understood that, and we were planning to marry once his divorce was final. We had to deal with such harsh judgement that we stopped gong to to church altogether. We did not feel welcome.

Anyone who has read my previous posts might understand how hard religion was for me. The treatment we received did not help and instead pushed us away from God.

Although I am new to learning about the Catholic faith, I know now all the sins that we commited. However, I do believe that God still loves us and forgives us, as he has granted us such beautiful, loving children. They were meant to be born, no matter when and how.