great , where is answer to question, its straight forward enough…The Quran…A literal and linguistic miracle…true or false ?..why or why not. That is the question. God or …?
There used to be a book online titled “A Restatement of the History of Islam.” My info comes from it.
It’s mythology, afaik, because Mohammed was of the only literate tribe in Arabia and he was the manager of his wife’s business. He could certainly read and write.
*I actually am a bit smarter than a box o’ rocks and I have no idea what this means. Could you restate this as a direct question?
No, but I was a Muslim, and I’ve taken up Muhammad’s challenge:
And if doubt that which We [Allah] have revealed to Our slave [Muhammad],
then produce a surah [chapter] like it, and call on your intercessor, if [you think you can have] one besides Allah, and if you are of truth.
The same challenge issued on that page - and have written surat and ayat that conform to the “Koran 19” code, as well as being as harmonious sounding as the most harmonious parts of the Koran (like surah al Ikhlas): many parts of the Koran are inharmonious (surah al Baqarah), and the Koran Code people remove certain verses because they don’t fit the code. It meets all of the criteria given.
There certainly is nothing even slightly miraculous about the Koran (without even getting in to the contradictions and untruths said within), let alone Islam and the myriad less-than-completely-sane beliefs (Muhammad was absolutely perfect): the most miraculous thing about it is that people still believe in a religion founded on it, or ever did (even though the religion itself comes from the hadith, not the Koran). People think the Bible is boring: the Bible reads like a most excellent thriller or Neal Stephenson novel compared to the Koran; the Bible is for lectio divina, the Koran is for penance. It has no cohesiveness, no story, no point - it’s a series of random injunctions, sometimes pithy, sometimes rambling, and “revelations” to settle Muhammad’s domestic disputes and disputes about war and leadership (coincidentally, always when things were getting out of hand for him, Allah came to the rescue).
An entire surah (109) is dedicated to Allah promising to curse one of Muhammad’s enemies, Abu Lahab, and his wife, to Hell, and a short but graphic depiction of the torture Allah has in store for them. That is not divine.
For example of a “surah like unto one Allah hath revealed”:
We gave Moses before you ten commandments
We give you multiple tens [of commandments]
To show that you are the king of the prophets, with more [than all the previous prophets]
We have made you the last of the prophets, prince of prophets
Seal of the Prophets, King of the Prophets!
We’ve given him our slave so you [Muhammad]
Can abrogate whatever, whenever it please m’lord
Of the orders We have given them.
We give leave to you to change all of our decisions.
Order my slaves who have faith in submission in Islam
To seek refuge in Allah when they yawn
In the Most Merciful to prevent Shaytan from farting at them,
And to greatly glorify Allah with “ALLAHU AKBER!” when they sneeze.
Order them not to allow dogs in their homes
Not to keep pictures in home or wall.
If they want to wear shoes, clothes, or do [a deed]
Order them to do the right before the left
If they do not they surely commit a heinous, grievous, mortal sin.
It even has the tell-tale shifts in noun, case, mood, tense, aspect, and perspective so characteristic of the Koranic text in the original Arabic. The translation is loose, not literal, as literal Arabic makes no sense in English. It also has a quite complex rhyme scheme in Arabic, and scans decently (although a few words are out of place, there’s nowhere in the actual Koran where there are none).
It plays on several words and puns on some of the more ridiculous beliefs of Muslims, i.e. sneezes are Satanic, extreme legalism, angels are scared of dogs and pictures, doing something left before right is a sin, that Satan breaks wind so he doesn’t have to hear the sound of the Koran, and that the Koran is a contradiction through-and-through explained away by “abrogation” of verses when it was convenient to Muhammad’s needs.
In the Arabic, it also conforms to the 19 Koran Code if laid in as surah 115, and further, makes the rest of the Koran (even parts that don’t fit the code in the Koran’s canonical form, i.e. the last several ayat of surah al tawbah) fit it. And writing it took me all of two hours, with no divine assistance (unless the Holy Spirit helped). Bracketed words are not in the Arabic, both for poetic license and for lack of need, but are supplied for clarification in English where the text would otherwise be unreadable.
I’ve written a few more for use in discrediting the “Koran is the miracle of Muhammad” tactic used by Islamic apologists, but only this one and a modification of surah 112 (instead of “Say He is Allah, the One” it becomes “Say, he is Hubal *, a one”) fit the Koran Code.
P.S. The Arabic script won’t display here but if anyone speaks Arabic and wants a transliteration to check my translation, I’d be more than happy.
Alright, maybe I am intelligent. I don’t know
The day is late, toms another day…( thread title designed for those interested in creative approach…there are many implications in the over all summation-opinion, Will read above tom…I’m certainly not an expert but…I don’t think the general public is either, which may provide for a worthwhile thread
,I heard Hamza go through this same spill before. I know this can be said to some extent of conversations in this thread, but his word semantics are radically different from those that you may use in every day spoken language. This often leads to your arguments being taken in a manner that doesn’t align with the thoughts you are trying to express. It also makes his words come across as meaning something entirely different than you might intuit and you’d be considerably deep into a discussion before you find out “no, that’s not what I meant by that word! You are arguing against a strawman argument, not my argument.”
No, but I was a Muslim, and I’ve taken up Muhammad’s challenge:
And if doubt that which We [Allah] have revealed to Our slave [Muhammad],
then produce a surah [chapter] like it, and call on your intercessor, if [you think you can have] one besides Allah, and if you are of truth.
The same challenge issued on that page - and have written surat and ayat that conform to the “Koran 19” code, as well as being as harmonious sounding as the most harmonious parts of the Koran (like surah al Ikhlas): many parts of the Koran are inharmonious (surah al Baqarah), and the Koran Code people remove certain verses because they don’t fit the code. It meets all of the criteria given.
There certainly is nothing even slightly miraculous about the Koran (without even getting in to the contradictions and untruths said within), let alone Islam and the myriad less-than-completely-sane beliefs (Muhammad was absolutely perfect): the most miraculous thing about it is that people still believe in a religion founded on it, or ever did (even though the religion itself comes from the hadith, not the Koran). People think the Bible is boring: the Bible reads like a most excellent thriller or Neal Stephenson novel compared to the Koran; the Bible is for lectio divina, the Koran is for penance. It has no cohesiveness, no story, no point - it’s a series of random injunctions, sometimes pithy, sometimes rambling, and “revelations” to settle Muhammad’s domestic disputes and disputes about war and leadership (coincidentally, always when things were getting out of hand for him, Allah came to the rescue).
An entire surah (109) is dedicated to Allah promising to curse one of Muhammad’s enemies, Abu Lahab, and his wife, to Hell, and a short but graphic depiction of the torture Allah has in store for them. That is not divine.
For example of a “surah like unto one Allah hath revealed”:
We gave Moses before you ten commandments
We give you multiple tens [of commandments]
To show that you are the king of the prophets, with more [than all the previous prophets]
We have made you the last of the prophets, prince of prophets
Seal of the Prophets, King of the Prophets!
We’ve given him our slave so you [Muhammad]
Can abrogate whatever, whenever it please m’lord
Of the orders We have given them.
We give leave to you to change all of our decisions.
Order my slaves who have faith in submission in Islam
To seek refuge in Allah when they yawn
In the Most Merciful to prevent Shaytan from farting at them,
And to greatly glorify Allah with “ALLAHU AKBER!” when they sneeze.
Order them not to allow dogs in their homes
Not to keep pictures in home or wall.
If they want to wear shoes, clothes, or do [a deed]
Order them to do the right before the left
If they do not they surely commit a heinous, grievous, mortal sin.
It even has the tell-tale shifts in noun, case, mood, tense, aspect, and perspective so characteristic of the Koranic text in the original Arabic. The translation is loose, not literal, as literal Arabic makes no sense in English. It also has a quite complex rhyme scheme in Arabic, and scans decently (although a few words are out of place, there’s nowhere in the actual Koran where there are none).
It plays on several words and puns on some of the more ridiculous beliefs of Muslims, i.e. sneezes are Satanic, extreme legalism, angels are scared of dogs and pictures, doing something left before right is a sin, that Satan breaks wind so he doesn’t have to hear the sound of the Koran, and that the Koran is a contradiction through-and-through explained away by “abrogation” of verses when it was convenient to Muhammad’s needs.
In the Arabic, it also conforms to the 19 Koran Code if laid in as surah 115, and further, makes the rest of the Koran (even parts that don’t fit the code in the Koran’s canonical form, i.e. the last several ayat of surah al tawbah) fit it. And writing it took me all of two hours, with no divine assistance (unless the Holy Spirit helped). Bracketed words are not in the Arabic, both for poetic license and for lack of need, but are supplied for clarification in English where the text would otherwise be unreadable.
I’ve written a few more for use in discrediting the “Koran is the miracle of Muhammad” tactic used by Islamic apologists, but only this one and a modification of surah 112 (instead of “Say He is Allah, the One” it becomes “Say, he is Hubal *, a one”) fit the Koran Code.
P.S. The Arabic script won’t display here but if anyone speaks Arabic and wants a transliteration to check my translation, I’d be more than happy.
Alright, maybe I am intelligent. I don’t know
Well I guess the phrase “informed and capable” should have been used rather than intelligence
to avoid the imaturity.thats seen in the un-informed and in-capable.
Thank you for above and it is what I was hoping to un-cover for the obvious in an ever increasing multi-cultural world. Hopefully viewers can learn something from above and the very
few other… mature posts.
My approach to the question was from a critical perspective of natural talent through art- creativity… in order to deconstruct the general “theme and presentation” in the Koran using this skill . I do not speak the languages,am not a historian and cannot even begin to correctly challenge the so called un-explained phenomenon put forward in the OP link. I don’t think many people could draft a proper complaint to the link…well done and appreciated.
If the belief is in absolute error which I believe, everyone should know exactly why… I find your
analogy incredibly thorough. and should be understood by anyone interested in understanding
the environment and the many Muslims who are now pushing this faith on the world with great vigor, no doubt about it.