Are You Interested In The Christology And Mystical Theology In Scripture?

[JReducation]

I have been lurking through a few threads on this sub-forum and I find some questions interesting; however, I keep asking myself why we’re not discussing the deeper levels of scripture.

We spend so much time discussing the Protestants and their interpretation of scripture, whether there truly was a Noah’s ark, why one edition of the bible is better than another and such things.

I guess, these are interesting for the sake of information, but they are questions that can be answered by reading any good theological or exegetical journal

Scripture contains so much Christology, especially the Old Testament. It contains such deep levels of spirituality and Mystical Theology as well as escatology and soteriology. In the end, it is the redemptive act of Christ and our spiritual life that determines our salvation, not how many days the Jews spent in the desert or whether Jonah was literally in the belly of the whale.

All of these stories tell us something about the mystery of Christ and about the journey toward the union of the soul with God.

Why do we spend so much time on the wrapping and not more time on what’s in the package?

The study of the redemptive act of Christ as it is played out from Genesis to Revelation and the study of the journey of the soul is the substance that leads saints to holiness. As they meditated on these great truths contained in scripture they grew closer to holiness and thus to God.

Isn’t there anyone on the scripture sub-forum that is interested in these topics?

These are the topics that the Church contemplates on a daily basis and that set the framework for her teaching on everyday issues.

Why aren’t there more people asking these kinds of questions? Can we engage in this kind of search as a community, rather than on the wrappings in which these mysteries come?

Instead of debating about the scripture, can we delve into them with a true sense of scholarship, in search for the deeper mystery of Christ and the height of Chrsitian holiness?

Is there anyone interested?

Fraternally,

JR

 

[lyrikal]

I used to be obsessed with refuting Protestants (I still am ) but now I’ve been getting really into the Gospels lately. I have had a deep love with reading the Gospels and applying it to my life today. Meditating and reflecting on the 4 Gospels. I guess I have sort of shifted from a theological interest to a more spiritual interest of the Bible. Thanks to Mother Angelica!! She is amazing at taking the scriptures and making them come to life.

I got the new Raymond Arroyo book “Mother Angelica: Private and Pithy Lessons From the Scriptures”. This is one of the best books I’ve ever owned and it is my favorite book at the moment. I have been really into Mother Angelica’s scripture teachings the past 3 weeks and it has made me strive for holiness a lot more than I’ve ever strived.

Does anyone know of any other saint or author who bring the scriptures to life and apply them to your life like Mother Angelica does? Particularly on the 4 Gospels. Whether it’s a book or something I can download as an mp3. Thank you.

Grace and Peace

 

[COPLAND_3]

Does anyone know of any other saint or author who bring the scriptures to life and apply them to your life like Mother Angelica does? Particularly on the 4 Gospels. Whether it’s a book or something I can download as an mp3. Thank you.

St. John Chrysostom gave homilies in a life applicable way. Most of the time any homily from the saints are designed that way. Below is a link to my website that has lots and lots of commentaries from the saints, and among those commentaries are many homilies.

 

[JReducation]

I used to be obsessed with refuting Protestants (I still am ) but now I’ve been getting really into the Gospels lately. I have had a deep love with reading the Gospels and applying it to my life today. Meditating and reflecting on the 4 Gospels. I guess I have sort of shifted from a theological interest to a more spiritual interest of the Bible. Thanks to Mother Angelica!! She is amazing at taking the scriptures and making them come to life.

I got the new Raymond Arroyo book “Mother Angelica: Private and Pithy Lessons From the Scriptures”. This is one of the best books I’ve ever owned and it is my favorite book at the moment. I have been really into Mother Angelica’s scripture teachings the past 3 weeks and it has made me strive for holiness a lot more than I’ve ever strived.

Does anyone know of any other saint or author who bring the scriptures to life and apply them to your life like Mother Angelica does? Particularly on the 4 Gospels. Whether it’s a book or something I can download as an mp3. Thank you.

Grace and Peace

St. Francis of Assisi does a very interesting thing with the scriptures. He takes verses and strings them together to write complete ideas on a spritual topic or a virtue that we should be living or focussing on. Try this site and go the the writings of St. Francis. You may find where Mother Angelica gets many of her ideas from too. Afterall, she is a Franciscan.

198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/fra/FRAmain.html

There is a great deal of applied scripture to the spiritual journey in the writings of St. Francis, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Bonaventure, St. Vincent de Paul, and Bl. Mother Teresa. Those are just for starters.

You mentioned that you were into debating with Protestants on scripture. I did that too when I was younger. When I joined the Franciscans we were trained not to do that. There were two reasons given that made so much sense.

The first was that our holy father himself was not into debates. He preached by example and when necessary used words. But the key is when necessary. His emphasis was not to win a debate but to win souls. He made greater progress through his love and his holiness than his arguments.

The second reason made even more sense. The primary mission of Francis was to convert Catholics. If Catholics are not imitating Christ and growing in holiness every day, then we need to start charity at home. We need to teach each other the way to holiness. Others may learn something by the way we live the scriptures. Others may be brought to conversion by our own conversion experience.

Watching the Popes of the last several decades, I’ve learned that real conversion is not forced, but it is inspired by charity and by cooperation in the things that we have in common. So, when a Protestant tries to “save me”, my usual response is to let them speak and ask a lot of questions rather than debate. I often find that if I ask thought provoking questions the tables get turned around in a charitable manner and no one feels attacked, even if they feel a little discomfort. Discomfort can be a good thing for the soul. Feeling attack only triggers a defensive response.

I have been following John Paul II and Benedict XVI and how they use scripture when they speak to non Catholics. They always make statements that no one can refute. I’m remembering Pope Benedict XVI’s statement when he came to the USA, “Jesus is our hope.” No one can refute that. He proceeded from there to show the world how we can grab on to that hope and bring it to life in the world.

Just my two cents.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Nita]

An excellent set of books (7 volumes) is titled “In Conversation with God”. The books are prayer book size - 4"W x 6"H x 1"thick.
It consists of daily meditations on the Mass readings. They are so good; but difficult to describe. Like a bible exegesis, church teaching, application in our lives, all rolled into one. I think the volumes can be purchased separately. That way you can try one and see whether you want to get the rest.

Nita

 

[Nita]

I have been lurking through a few threads on this sub-forum and I find some questions interesting; however, I keep asking myself why we’re not discussing the deeper levels of scripture.

We spend so much time discussing the Protestants and their interpretation of scripture, whether there truly was a Noah’s ark, why one edition of the bible is better than another and such things.

I guess, these are interesting for the sake of information, but they are questions that can be answered by reading any good theological or exegetical journal

Scripture contains so much Christology, especially the Old Testament. It contains such deep levels of spirituality and Mystical Theology as well as escatology and soteriology. In the end, it is the redemptive act of Christ and our spiritual life that determines our salvation, not how many days the Jews spent in the desert or whether Jonah was literally in the belly of the whale.

All of these stories tell us something about the mystery of Christ and about the journey toward the union of the soul with God.

Why do we spend so much time on the wrapping and not more time on what’s in the package?

The study of the redemptive act of Christ as it is played out from Genesis to Revelation and the study of the journey of the soul is the substance that leads saints to holiness. As they meditated on these great truths contained in scripture they grew closer to holiness and thus to God.

Isn’t there anyone on the scripture sub-forum that is interested in these topics?

These are the topics that the Church contemplates on a daily basis and that set the framework for her teaching on everyday issues.

Why aren’t there more people asking these kinds of questions? Can we engage in this kind of search as a community, rather than on the wrappings in which these mysteries come?

Instead of debating about the scripture, can we delve into them with a true sense of scholarship, in search for the deeper mystery of Christ and the height of Chrsitian holiness?

Is there anyone interested?

Fraternally,

JR

I would be very interested.
How would you go about it?

Nita

 

[JReducation]

I would be very interested.
How would you go about it?

Nita

I say let’s begin from the beginning and work through the major events in scripture. Forget whether the story of creation in Genesis is historical metaphor or literal history. Take the story at face value.

If we observe very closely, there is a connection between the words in Genesis and the Prologue of John. John refers to Jesus as the Logos, which in Greek means The Word. In Genesis the author repeats the phrase “God said”. God creates through the power of his Word. The writers of Genesis had a foreshadowing of the Divine Logos, even though Christ had not become incarnate he was being revealed to them thousands of years before and they wrote about it.

They undestood that all things came into existence through the power of God’s Word, the Divine Logos in John. What they didn’t know was that the Divine Logos was the second person of the Trinity who would become incarnate thousands of years later.

In his Divine Mercy, God was already disclosing his eternal Son prior to the incarnation. In fact, Genesis is speaking to us not only of God’s omnipotence and intelligence through his creation, but it also speaks to us of God’s desire to be known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Observe that he breathes life into man. The Jews had a very different take on the breadth of life. It was the Spirit, the soul.

Man’s soul is the product of the Holy Spirit. This is where man and God are in the same image and likeness. Man’s soul is the product of the action of the Holy Spirit.

If we carefully look at Genesis, we see God revealing himself as a Trinity of persons. However, God is also merciful and temperate. He only reveals to man what man can handle at the time that man can handle it.

Hence, God’s great love for man is disclosed, not only as Creator, but also as protector.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[redrosetea]

St Augustine said the New Testament is hidden in the old, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New

I am taking RCIA as a refresher course and at first I didn’t understand the jumping back and forth between old and new , until I read that…now it makes perfect sense…

 

[JReducation]

St Augustine said the New Testament is hidden in the old, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New

I am taking RCIA as a refresher course and at first I didn’t understand the jumping back and forth between old and new , until I read that…now it makes perfect sense…

Well there you go. You now have the beginning as found in Genesis and John and the first connection is made for us to meditate on.

JR

 

[redrosetea]

Why don’t you start a thread and let us ask questions ? You are far more qualified than many of us are

 

[JReducation]

Why don’t you start a thread and let us ask questions ? You are far more qualified than many of us are

1. I was hoping this thread would encourage just that, lots of questions about the spiritual life and the scriptures.
2. I am not more qualified than any other person. I went to school to study this stuff. But believe me, there is much to be learned out there.
3. We can all take a crack at answering each other’s questions and helping each other clarify the answers.

I would be more than happy to hang around, as long we don’t get int othe silly discussions, did Moses really part the Red Sea or did Lot’s wife really turn into a pillar of salt? Good Christian thought focuses on holiness. We look to the scriptures for guidance toward holiness.

By the way, I agree with Augustine. The OT is revealed in the NT and the NT is hidden in the OT.

JR

 

[redrosetea]

OK you start…compared to me you are a scholar…I am here to learn and I am always filled with questions…but I will try not to ask ones you might not like

I understand that somethings are only speculation and no one really knows

I will be gone for 1/2 hr …I am going to watch the Footprints of God on EWTN…that will give you time to devise a lesson plan

 

[Cristiano]

I just went through " The God of Jesus Christ" by J. Ratzinger. It is a set of meditations about the Triune God. It is only 110 pages but it is illuminating. I think that it might be a good start on what you are looking for.

 

[JReducation]

I just went through " The God of Jesus Christ" by J. Ratzinger. It is a set of meditations about the Triune God. It is only 110 pages but it is illuminating. I think that it might be a good start on what you are looking for.

That’s an awesome work, because he focuses on the moral and spiritual relationship between God and man. If you notice, Ratzinger does not spend a lot of time speculating about archeological or anthropological questions. He leaves them to those branches of science. He uses philosophy, theolgoy and good exegesis to set up his questions and arrive at his answers.

Being a Franciscan I am biased, because Benedict XVI is very Bonaventurian in his theology. Everything begins with Christ as opposed to Aquinas who begins with Truth. They both end up in the same place, but come at it from different approaches.

In Ratzinger’s work he explains God through his understanding of Christ. He begins with the NT and proceeds to explain Salvation History. This is a good place to begin.

We can begin with a story of the OT and see how it leads to Christ, as I did with Genesis and John’s Prologue.

JR

 

[redrosetea]

I am going to bookmark this thread …I will check back tomorrow to see if there is anything on it to read or any passages of scripture to discuss

It is 11 pm right now and time for me to turn in…

 

[JReducation]

In Genesis we read how Cain kills his brother Abel and how the Lord exiles Cain. Let us forget for a moment the literary questions such as: 1) Who was Cain’s wife? 2) Where was this land to which God sent Cain and where did its inhabitants come from? 3) How many children did Adam and Eve have? Or 4) did siblings marry one another? The answer to these questions satisfies those who are interested in Bible History, which is a good thing. But they don’t really add much to the spiritual life of the Christian who is seeking holiness.

The Christian who is seeking to live a holy life is seeking to encounter Christ and be united with him in this world and in eternity. This is what we’re going to do in with this story. We’re going to encounter Christ, who is covertly present to man from the beginning of time. If we closely examine the story, God asks Cain a very pointed question. He asks him for the whereabouts of his brother. The book of Genesis tells us that Cain responds rudely. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

There are two very obvious things happening here.

1. God knows where Abel is. Otherwise he wouldn’t be God. Abel’s soul is now with God. For the sake of clarity, let us remember that God exists outside of time and space. Therefore in God’s “space” the cross and redemption have already taken place. They have yet to come in human time, but not in divine time. God lives in an eternal present. There is no past or future for God.
2. God asks Cain the question not because God does not know, for he is all knowing and is present everywhere. The writer of Genesis wants us to pay attention to the fact that God knows our hearts, even before we do. In this case, he knew Cain’s heart. But the question must be asked, not for God’s benefit, but for Cain’s benefit. Man must face the reality of his actions, feelings, choices, and internal demons. We’re not talking about the occult. We’re talking about our inclination to do harm.

Now enter Jesus. He sees a crowd about to stone a woman. He knows what she has done. He knows the Law of Moses, but he must ask the question, just like the situation with Cain.

1. He asks what she has done, the same question that God asked Cain. The crowd tells him that she must be stoned because she committed adultery. Jesus does not address the adultery, because the crowd has already convicted the woman. She is already facing the consequences of her actions.
2. Jesus challenges the crow. “Let the person who has no sin to throw the first stone.” Like Cain, he challenges the crowd to confront themselves and examine the state of their souls.

In both scenarios, God requires humanity to face his actions and to be accountable. Cain refuses to be accountable. Not only does Cain commit the sin of murder, but he repeats the sin of Adam. He rejects responsibility. Adam blamed the woman. The woman blamed the serpent. There is a transgression and a denial of one’s weakness and responsibility. There is an attempt to hide one’s soul from the sight of God, as if that were possible. This is the greatest form of disobedience, for it is an attempt to place ourselves above God by believing that we can deceive him. “Thou shalt havae no other gods but me”.

The Scriptures call us to holiness. Holiness does not mean that we never sin. It means that we admit our sinfulness and accept God’s gracious mercy.

Observe how Jesus tells the woman to go and sin no more. He asks, “Where are they who condemned you?” Again, he knows the answer. He is playing with words to get to the point. “Neither do I condemn you.” He grants the woman absolution, because she accepts her sin. Cain, on the other hand, is sent into exile, because he tries to hide his sin from God rather than acknowledge his sin and accept God’s mercy.

The message here is this. We all sin. There are only two choices left after we sin. We either accept responsibility and God’s mercy for our choices or we deny responsibility and get sent away into exile.

The saints prayed for the gift of contrition. The woman caught in adultery was contrite and was sent away in peace. Cain was rude and arrogant, thus he was sentenced into exile to live among the Godless. Does Cain return to God? Who knows? We know this, God hoped and so he put a sign on his head that no one was allowed to kill him. Even those he sends into exile, he preserves in the hope that they will come home some day. This is the foreshadowing of the Prodigal Son. Even though Jesus is not mentioned by name, because he is not yet incarnate, we can see him present in the OT interceding for man’s soul.

Let us pray for the grace of repentance and the grace of humility when we sin.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[lyrikal]

This is the kind of thread that I look for when I am lurking the forums. It’s almost like you took the thread right out of my head and placed it here. Thank you for starting this.

 

[JReducation]

This is the kind of thread that I look for when I am lurking the forums. It’s almost like you took the thread right out of my head and placed it here. Thank you for starting this.

I’m with you. This is what I look for too. My greatest desire in life is to be a saint. The scholarly debates about scripture, theology, liturgy and other such matters, I got at the university and the seminary from people who could actually give me very intelligent answers, even if I didn’t agree.

I already spend too much time in the classroom to spend my free time in debates. I want to spend my free time in the pursuit of holiness so that I can take it with me where ever I go.

I hope we cand spend some prayerful and reflective moments together on this thread.

Fraternally in St. Francis,

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Hello JR - Thanks for the PM pointing out this thread. Its good to be on the forum with you again.

Two things jumped out and grabbed me in this one. I kept those paragraphs and deleted the rest for the sake of space. The first is –

1. God knows where Abel is. Otherwise he wouldn’t be God. Abel’s soul is now with God. For the sake of clarity, let us remember that God exists outside of time and space. Therefore in God’s “space” the cross and redemption have already taken place. They have yet to come in human time, but not in divine time. ** God lives in an eternal present. There is no past or future for God.**

bolding = mine

This is an excellent point of discussion. I just finished giving a talk to the Divine Mercy Cenacle for my Archdiocese. The Divine Mercy Handbook (2nd volume) calls this the “Eternal Now”. As you said, for God there is no past, present or future. Just the present, as time is of his own creation. As such, not being subject to his own creation such as time and the laws of nature, he, in his omniscience know all things, which are past, present or future, for us, his creatures. The point of discussion was God’s infinite mercy and answer to prayer. With him not being subject to time, and everything being present before him, our prayers for our predecessors, ourselves and our descendants are as they are being presented to him at their time for whatever their needs. This helps us understand his infinite mercy for us, his creatures in a much deeper way and gives a greater appreciation for the depth of his love for us.

The message here is this. We all sin. There are only two choices left after we sin. We either accept responsibility and God’s mercy for our choices or we deny responsibility and get sent away into exile.

This ties in with the sacrament of reconciliation. When we confess our sins, we are acknowledging them before the priest, God’s personal representative for us. Our confession is an acknowledgment of our sins which leads to and enables us to be forgiven through the absolution given by the priest. In the seminary, we all learned of the priest being an “alter Christus”, i.e., another Christ. Through the faculties given him by the sacrament of Holy Orders when he forgives through absolution, for us, the penitent, it is an objective encounter with the person of Jesus Christ, through the person of the priest. It is just as real as it was for the woman caught in adultery, standing before Jesus when he forgave her.

I hope these two insights help some to understand God’s love for us. As Jesus told St. Faustina, “I desire mercy, not justice”. If we think about that statement, knowing all we have done to him through our sinfulness, and the pain he endured for us on the cross, how can we not help but love him in return.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[redrosetea]

I have a question I hope you won’t think is silly…I had heard that before Christ was resurrected ,souls that died , went to limbo if they were godly people, because heaven wasn’t yet opened for them before Christ died to redeem us…(I understand the concept of God existing outside of time)

Your post would seem to counter that…you mentioned the divine mercy, would that include pagans?