Are You Interested In The Christology And Mystical Theology In Scripture?

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The saints prayed for the gift of contrition. The woman caught in adultery was contrite and was sent away in peace. Cain was rude and arrogant, thus he was sentenced into exile to live among the Godless. Does Cain return to God? Who knows? We know this, God hoped and so he put a sign on his head that no one was allowed to kill him. Even those he sends into exile, he preserves in the hope that they will come home some day. This is the foreshadowing of the Prodigal Son. Even though Jesus is not mentioned by name, because he is not yet incarnate, we can see him present in the OT interceding for man’s soul.
JR, I edited your above quote for space purposes, although it is another gem in its entirety.

Believe it or not, one of my favorite passages of Scripture is the 16th Chapter of Ezekiel. I think my favorite translation of it is in the NAB. Unless I am mistaken, it is the most scathing condemnation of Israel (for its idolatry) that can be found in the entire Bible. In likening Israel to an adulterous wife, it is so incredibly graphic that it sounds as though it came out of an X-rated magazine.

Yet despite the Lord’s fury, towards the end of the reading, the Lord speaks His promise:
Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you when you were a girl, and I will set up an everlasting covenant with you.
How beautiful! How consoling! No matter what our sins may be, He will always remember His covenant. He will always keep His promises.

And although I like the NAB version the best, the last line of the passage in the New King James Bible says:
Then you shall know that I am the LORD, that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord GOD.
The New King James is the only version where I’ve found the translation, “… when I provide you an atonement…”

Writing approximately 600 years before Jesus became incarnate to become our atonement, Ezekiel speaks of the Lord’s promise to provide an atonement. Who could have imagined then that the One promising an atonement would be the atonement?

I find the Old Testament littered with references to all three Persons of the Trinity and to the great mercy of God. How is it that so many do not believe?
 
One of the first questions I ask myself when reading Scripture, is “What do I learn about God from this passage/story?” Getting to know and grow closer to God is far and away one of the greatest joys of reading Scripture.

The first 3 chapters of Genesis are amazing in what they reveal about God. I think they contain the seeds for all the rest of Scripture!

In Chapter 4 concerning Cain and Abel, two things particularly stand out for me.
  1. Despite the sin of Adam and Eve, God continues to be personally involved in our lives, to help us live in goodness.
    Eg. God intervenes in Cain’s life early on, prior to his committing the serious sin of murder, hoping he will change from the path he is heading down. When Cain offers his sacrifice (4:5-7), God does not accept it and tells Cain why - he is “not doing well”, opening the door to sin’s temptation. And God tells Cain he needs to “master it”.
I think He is always “intervening” in our lives; we just don’t recognize that He is the one behind the little interventions.
  1. The passage shows the justice of God. But it is a justice tempered by mercy - not the “eye for an eye” strict justice, Cain’s life for Abel’s life. God allows Cain to live. Is it to give him more time to repent and convert, thus saving his soul??
    Ezekiel 18:23 “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?”
Nita
 
Great thread, I love everyone’s thoughts and insights! 👍

I’d like to throw an idea into the ring, one to be explored along with all the others here, as it pertains to JR’s opening story of Cain and Abel.

I have always been fascinated by the theme of blood and how it is portrayed throughout Scripture. As to the story of Cain and Abel, when Cain killed Abel, it was said that Abel’s blood cried out to God from the ground where it was spilled. There is something powerful being said here.

The theme of the importance of blood is found throughout the Old and New Testaments, from the shedding of blood in Eden to provide a covering for Adam and Eve, to the closing book of Revelation, where Christ’s blood is our source of life.

The life is in the blood. God always used blood as atonement, first through the sacrifice of animals, which foreshadowed the true atonement, the sacrifice of Christ, whose blood atones and gives us nourishment and life.

I may not be conveying my thoughts well here, but if anyone is interested in exploring this theme and the spiritual implications, I think it would be very interesting. 🙂

I’m off for the day, I will check back in later this afternoon.
 
I have a question I hope you won’t think is silly…I had heard that before Christ was resurrected ,souls that died , went to limbo if they were godly people, because heaven wasn’t yet opened for them before Christ died to redeem us…(I understand the concept of God existing outside of time)

Your post would seem to counter that…you mentioned the divine mercy, would that include pagans?
Within our concept of time, the souls that died before Christ’s redemptive act were in “hell”. That’s what we say in the Apostles Creed. We do not mean Satan’s hometown. Given the fact that God is outside of time and that at the moment of death we too step outside of time, Abel would have been redeemed by Christ already. That’s why the Immaculate Conception works. Mary was already redeemed by Christ in God’s space and time, long before she was conceived.

Does this include pagans? That’s a very good question. The traditional answer of the Church is that God writes his moral law into the the conscience of all men and women. Therefore, everyone is bound to observe and live by whatever degree of God’s law is known to their conscience.

To the degree that one is faithful to what one has received, there is the possibility of salvation.

Hope this helps.

JR 🙂
 
If they were already redeemed why would they have been in a type of hell rather than heaven itsel?f…I am a bit lost here
 
If they were already redeemed why would they have been in a type of hell rather than heaven itsel?f…I am a bit lost here
This is where scripture needs the help of Philosophy of Theology. The cross takes place within human time and space. Redemption takes place outside of time and space. God’s work is not subject to his creation. He created time and space.

When the early Fathers wrote this, they wrote from the perspective of human history, not from the perspective of Divine existence. They were trying to convey a theological reality, that without Christ’s saving act there is not access to heaven. Chirst descends to hell to release those who have been redeemed and are waiting for the opening of the gates of Heaven.

Looked at from our vantage point, this can only take place after Jesus dies. Looked at from God’s vantage point, Jesus died and rose long before he ever created us. For God there is no future. As Deacon Ed and I have said, God lives only in the present. Everything that is going to happen or that happened in the past exists in God’s eternal present. He does not look back or forward, because the creator of time is not subject to the laws of time.

Metaphysics says that the author of the rules cannot be subject to the rules that he creates, because they never existed until he created them. Either he has existed as an outlaw, until the time when he created the rules or he is beyond the rules.

God is obviously beyond the rules of time. Heavy stuff! :eek:

Let’s stay on topic with scripture and the spiritual life. Any more questions about metaphysics please hold for PM or post on philosophy sub-forum. Warning: not many good philosophers there. Everyone quotes philosophy, but not many can unpack it correctly. Ask an Apologist is an even better source. Fr. Vincent is very good with philosophy.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I have a question about man before the fall…there was no evil in the world until man disobeyed God…is this somehow tied to the way Lucifer refused to serve God?

Could the fall of man and the revolt in heaven be all the same thing…I hope I am not taking us off track…if I am I apologize
 
I have a question about man before the fall…there was no evil in the world until man disobeyed God…is this somehow tied to the way Lucifer refused to serve God?

Could the fall of man and the revolt in heaven be all the same thing…I hope I am not taking us off track…if I am I apologize
To understand the difference between the fall of Lucifer and the fall of man, one has to look at Mt. 4, the Temptation of Jesus. Satan is the tempter of humanity. Humanity does not participate in his rebellion against God.

There is a very important point that has to be acknowledged here. The first Adam allowed himself to be seduced by the tempter. The human Christ is the new Adam and he refutes all of Satan’s temptations. Christ restores order to our humanity. Through Christ’s strength against the temptation to sin, we are encouraged that we too have the strength to resist temptations. We are not predestined to fall every time that we are tempted.

This was a common mistake made by the Protestant Reformers who looked at the fall of Adam and not at the triumph of Christ in the desert. They assumed that man was predestined to be ugly and sinful, because of Adam’s sin. Worse, they assumed that man could not resist sin without the grace of God, which is true. But they forgot that God’s mercy provides this grace freely to everyone, not only to a selected few.

When God creates Adam, he creates the human race. It is his desire to establish man by his side for all eternity. In other words, it is his desire that man go to heaven, not that some be lost. Those who are lost are lost by their own choice, not by God’s design.

If we look at Christ’s temptations in the desert and the temptation in the Garden of Eden, they are the same. In the garden, Satan says to man that he shall be like God if he disobeys. In the desert he says to Jesus that God will provide everything for him, even if he disobeys. In both cases, Satan tempts man to abuse God’s love. There is nothing new here. We still struggle with the temptation to abuse God’s love by taking things for granted, by assuming that we can do what we want and be forgiven just by asking for it, without any real contrition. We still try to abuse God’s love by abusing the gifts that he gives us. For example, is not abortion or the destruction of our planet an abuse of God’s love?

One final comment on the fall of Adam and the temptations of Christ, the three things that man wants most are power, pleasure and wealth. This was what Satan was alluding to when he told Adam that he would be like God. God is all powerful. God is all joy (pleasure). God owns all that he created, wealthy beyond our imagination since we do not know yet know everything that he created.

In Christian spirituality, the early Christians observed Jesus’ response to Satan and compared it to that of Adam. They observed that Jesus put into practice what they early Fathers called the Evangelical Counsels: obedience, chastity, and poverty. He was obedient to the will of his father. He would not give in to satisfy the longings of his body. He did not cave in to Satan’s promise of fortune and glory, but chose the emptiness of the desert to find God.

The temptations of Christ and the temptation of Adam go hand in hand. In Genesis we see man destroy himself in search of power, pleasure and wealth. In the Gospels we see the God-Man put these things into their proper place through the exercise of discipline: obedience, chastity, and poverty. These are called counsels, because Christ reveals to us how to respond to the most powerful temptations that are part of the human condition. He shows us that also in the human condition are the ability to resist and triumph. God’s grace has made it possible. He urges us through his own example to follow the counter path to temptation. Thus we call them counsels.

The rebellion of Satan and his angels was not about resisting temptation. It was about tempting God. There is the difference between the fall of man and the fall of Lucifer.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Great thread, I love everyone’s thoughts and insights! 👍

I’d like to throw an idea into the ring, one to be explored along with all the others here, as it pertains to JR’s opening story of Cain and Abel.

I have always been fascinated by the theme of blood and how it is portrayed throughout Scripture. As to the story of Cain and Abel, when Cain killed Abel, it was said that Abel’s blood cried out to God from the ground where it was spilled. There is something powerful being said here.

The theme of the importance of blood is found throughout the Old and New Testaments, from the shedding of blood in Eden to provide a covering for Adam and Eve, to the closing book of Revelation, where Christ’s blood is our source of life.

The life is in the blood. God always used blood as atonement, first through the sacrifice of animals, which foreshadowed the true atonement, the sacrifice of Christ, whose blood atones and gives us nourishment and life.

I may not be conveying my thoughts well here, but if anyone is interested in exploring this theme and the spiritual implications, I think it would be very interesting. 🙂

I’m off for the day, I will check back in later this afternoon.
I think that before we go deeper into the topic of the shedding of blood in scripture, we must make sure that we’re all using Catholic language. The Protestant usage of “being washed in the blood of Christ” does not quite convey the same meaning revealed to the Early Church and promoted by the Magisterium.

This is just my take on this. As Catholics we look to the scripture for revelation, but also for spiritual nurturing so that we may become more like Christ. We can get into the whole debate about the symbol of blood in Jewish culture or we can cut to the chase and right into the spiritual life. Let’s do the latter. If anyone wants to know about the Israelites’ beliefs concerning blood, ask an apologist or a scripture scholar. A Rabbi who is a scholar on the Torah is your best resource for this question.

Jeanette points out something that is very true. Blood does play an important part in the scriptures. In ancient history people of many cultures believed that life was stored in blood. That’s why many ancient cultures had rituals that involved the drinking of blood or the opposite, cleansing oneself from contamination by blood so as not to contaminate one’s own spiritual life.

If we’re looking for Christ in the OT story of Cain and Abel, the reference to the “blood of Abel crying out” may help us understand something about the Eucharist and the cross. At the last supper Jesus tells his disciples to drink of the cup of his blood which will be shed for the many. Jesus’ blood not only provides life, but it is also the sacrifice to be offered. He is both food and sacrifice.

Like the blood of Abel, Jesus’ blood will be spilled for the salvation of the many. Jesus’ blood will cry to the Father on our behalf for our redemption. Abel’s blood cried out for justice. Christ’s blood cries out for mercy. Why the difference?

Jesus is the perfect man. He is the God-Man. Only the blood of the perfect victim can raise the perfect prayer to the Father. Abel was a victim of a heinous crime. But he had inherited the sin of Adam. He could only ask for justice, retribution for his life. It could only cry out to the Lord from the soil.

Jesus too was the victim of a heinous crime. Being the pure spotless lamb, he could ask for mercy. The perfect victim could raise the perfect prayer for the redemption of humanity, not only for himself. His blood poured out on the cross cries out to the Father, not from the soil, but from the cross. It cries out not for his own salvation, but for the salvation of many.

Thus, just as he promised at the Last Supper, he blood brought redemption, something than none of the other sacrifices in the scriptures could bring about. The blood of Christ not only atoned for sins, but offered the perfect sacrifice of atonement. No more sacrifices were necessary.

This leads us into the whole mystery of the Eucharist. The mass is the offering of the perfect sacrifice offered on Calvary around the year 33 AD. The blood at the mass is the blood of the perfect victim, the only victim who can cry out for mercy on behalf of the many, not just himself. Upon hearing the voice of his blood the Father responded with the forgiveness of our sins and through Christ’s blood the Father restores all men to be his sons, as had been his plan when he created Adam and Eve.

As I read through the scriptures and I read about the blood sacrifices offered in atonement for sins or as acts of praise to God. I believe that these stories are really telling us about Christ’s redemptive act on our behalf. These stories do not stand alone. Christ is contained in them and is trying to communicate and prepare his people for the greatest act of love in history, the pouring of Christ’s blood on the cross for the salvation of the many.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I have a question I hope you won’t think is silly…I had heard that before Christ was resurrected ,souls that died , went to limbo if they were godly people, because heaven wasn’t yet opened for them before Christ died to redeem us…(I understand the concept of God existing outside of time)

Your post would seem to counter that…you mentioned the divine mercy, would that include pagans?
The Church teaches that the souls of the just did not enter heaven prior to the crucifixion as the gates of heaven were closed due to original sin. In the apostles creed when we say that Jesus descended into hell, note that this is not the hell of Satan. The ancient world considered “Hades” the abode of the dead, not a place of condemnation. The gates of hell were never closed for those who died in mortal sin.

God’s mercy is for all people. He judges them not as man does, but by his infinite mercy, wisdom and justice. Even scripture in Paul’s epistle to the Romans describes judgment for those outside the law. i.e., those who are not of the Jewish or Christian faith. These are judged by the natural law, written into the heart of every human being, which when reduced to writing is the 10 commandments. This one topic could be an entire thread. It is even addressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church with specificity. Hopefully this will answer your question.
Prayers & blessisngs
Deacon Ed B
 
I would like to ask some questions about angels…In listening to Fluton J Sheens program about angles ,he said that an angle wouldn’t change it’s mind

So if the turned bad there was no other way for them to be…is this why there was no redemption for those that were fallen?

I have also hear it was about 1/3 all the angles that revolted with lucifier…some from all the choirs…it is a bit off putting for me that 2 of the choirs are called powers and principalities and that in the NW powers and principalities are refered to as demonic
 
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