L
lovemyboys
Guest
I’m AMAZED that you became Catholic after this upbringing.
- Status
B
benidict
Guest
MissMarlene to Benedictus - Forgive me sir
Me- Hi MissMarlene. Benedictus is a :curtsey: you just made my army day! LOL! Peace 
Me- Hi MissMarlene. Benedictus is a :curtsey: you just made my army day! LOL! Peace
M
MissMarlene
Guest
Well in that case what that poster said made even less sense:
MissMarlene :
A woman cannot be a priest, but she can be a protestant pastor according to protestant theology, which makes sense within its own system. Its an interpretation of Scripture in this area, where they utilize some scripture passages, with which the Catholic Church is not concerned…
Other Poster:
That is why we have nuns. We have nuns who teach, nuns who minister to the sick, nuns who are sent out to the poor.
What is why? Its nonsense unless understood in the sense that this poster carries the Catholic nun-ministry over into where he personally thinks it should belong, namely in the place of what is now the female pastor-role.
To that my answer remains that these two things are very different and the statement is way too simplistic.’
Hope that clarifies things.
R
Roy5
Guest
A few random points/responses.
** 1. As for my views being ‘total rubbish’,** "stupid’, ‘arrogant’ amd trying to dictate to the church, I’m not sure that sort of interchange adds anything to our discussion. It’s just such an attitude that has alienated many from the CC, Gosh, I recall, as a student years ago, that the church tried to tell us what books we couldn’t read! And on the ‘Index’ of forbidden books were some of the great classics. Thank God, those days are over.
** 2, "Feminists’ come in many different patterns.** To label them all as somehow evil is silly and unfair. Women have faced considerable discrimination over the years. I oppose the irrational militants myself, but I applaud those women who seek to remove any unfair barriers that continue to exist. I feel the same about African-Americans and any other group which has too often been judged by their gender or color or religion. When I pledge allegiance to the flag, I include those words ‘with liberty and justice for all’ - and mean it. Catholics should be especially sensitive on this issue because of past prejudice and discrimination against them.
3. There is no need or benefit in continuously denigrating Protestantism. Now, there may be pockets of Protestant hostility toward Catholics but I have never experienced it. Most Protestants I know take the position ‘agree to disagree’, and they seem much more likely than traditional Catholics to appreciate the faiths of others, Christian and nn-Christian alike. Now, let me add that I don’t live in the Bible belt, and it could well be quite different there???
** 4. I still hope (and predict) that there will be women priests someday - at least Deacons**. As I noted above, years ago, if I recall correctly, women were even barred from the altar area, at least where I grew up, except for nuns for cleaned it. Women had to cover their head, women never read the lessons, etc. There have been enormous changes during my lifetime, and there will be more. Do we trust the workings of the Holy Spirit - or not?
** 5. Not long ago I attended a dinner to honor those who had contributed to a Catholic college**. I happened to sit beside a nun of the order that founded the college. In the course of our conversation, I found it interesting that she expressed considerable concern about the hierarchy, including recent popes, fearful that they were trying to turn the clock back - e. g., Latin mass, role of women, etc. I wondered how typical she was. Anyway, it was an eye-opener as to how at least some nuns must feel.
Code:
In all honesty, I presume I feel 'called' to offer a different perspective, and I appreciate the opportunity CAF offers to do this. I believe in reform within the church. The Reformation was caused by many factors, some political, some personal, but an important factor was a resistance to reform. The Council of Trent was held in part to bring about reforms and did just that. Why is there do much hostility against even discussing them in our time?** 2, "Feminists’ come in many different patterns.** To label them all as somehow evil is silly and unfair. Women have faced considerable discrimination over the years. I oppose the irrational militants myself, but I applaud those women who seek to remove any unfair barriers that continue to exist. I feel the same about African-Americans and any other group which has too often been judged by their gender or color or religion. When I pledge allegiance to the flag, I include those words ‘with liberty and justice for all’ - and mean it. Catholics should be especially sensitive on this issue because of past prejudice and discrimination against them.
3. There is no need or benefit in continuously denigrating Protestantism. Now, there may be pockets of Protestant hostility toward Catholics but I have never experienced it. Most Protestants I know take the position ‘agree to disagree’, and they seem much more likely than traditional Catholics to appreciate the faiths of others, Christian and nn-Christian alike. Now, let me add that I don’t live in the Bible belt, and it could well be quite different there???
** 4. I still hope (and predict) that there will be women priests someday - at least Deacons**. As I noted above, years ago, if I recall correctly, women were even barred from the altar area, at least where I grew up, except for nuns for cleaned it. Women had to cover their head, women never read the lessons, etc. There have been enormous changes during my lifetime, and there will be more. Do we trust the workings of the Holy Spirit - or not?
** 5. Not long ago I attended a dinner to honor those who had contributed to a Catholic college**. I happened to sit beside a nun of the order that founded the college. In the course of our conversation, I found it interesting that she expressed considerable concern about the hierarchy, including recent popes, fearful that they were trying to turn the clock back - e. g., Latin mass, role of women, etc. I wondered how typical she was. Anyway, it was an eye-opener as to how at least some nuns must feel.
Let us work together to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. I believe Christ would approve of that.
M
MissMarlene
Guest
How was it obvious?
I have been to odd services too… like masses where the sermon was absurd or the priest was absent minded and just babbling without being concentrated, and you felt like he shouldn’t be celebrating mass like that…
And I have been to many really worthy services conducted in the town where I grew up. The Lutheran pastor was a woman with a gift for preaching and everything in the service (a lot structured like Catholic Mass) was thoroughly and beautifully done.
When I started considering becoming Catholic it felt TOTALLY ODD that there were no Catholic women-pastors. I wept for that… and I only came to accept it and understand why through prayer.
As for the lack of women-prophetesses in Catholic Churches in ministry in the assemblies… now that puzzles me… because its clear from Scripture that women were given that ministry for the edification of the congregation in the early Church along with men… And I see this still today in the services in charismatic evangelical churches… but not in the Catholic Masses… which is rather sad in my oppinion.
What do you think about that? I assume you know the Acts of the Apostles so please tell me your take on that…
M.M
B
beafedor
Guest
Miss Marlene, I read all of your posts and I understand a little better where you are coming from. First of all, on a thread untitled “Are you offended by such and such” we should expect some emotional reactions on both sides. I am on the “offended” side and I probably sound offensive to some people with a different sensibility. I apologize but if I’m being honest, I can’t say it’s fine with me. I’m actually glad that we have this forum to voice our concerns. Now Benedictus 2 was talking about the radical feminists that have flourished here in the US since the sexual revolution and have nothing to do with the feminists pioneers such as Susan B. Anthony who fought for women’s right to vote while embracing motherhood. I am a Catholic woman in Ministry and these radical feminists made a lot of damage in women’s lives and we have to fight them and reclaim true femininity, the dignity of married life and motherhood. I am a wife and mother and had 2 abortions, and am pro-active on Pro-life/post abortion issues. I get to share my testimony in Church, on the Catholic radio, in the Catholic newspaper and different venues. I do not feel that the hierarchy/clergy only want men to educate, evangelize, reach out to the Parish community on important issues. On the contrary, they encourage women like me to share their stories of fall and redemption to help others. We also need them Priests to give us spiritual direction and receive the Sacraments. My Priest is acting in persona Christi, in the person of Jesus. I can’t imagine a woman acting as Christ and giving me absolution, consecrating the host or anointing me. I come from a very liberal/atheistic background but once I found my way home to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, I have had a total change of heart. This is so strong in my soul, I cannot find the right words to express it but I know that God meant for men to be His Priests. And I’m thankful to be a woman and to be able to reach out to others in the Church.
M
MissMarlene
Guest
Dear brother.
THANK YOU. I feel like many of my Catholic brothers lack understanding of the nuances in feminism. I would describe myself as a feminist… being pro equality, in politics, equal wages for equal work (believe it or not but women are still payed less for equal work in the “free-world”), pro freedom, pro-family and pro-women (that means a total ban on prostitution, abortion and pornography and respecting housewives instead of making them feel like their work isnt as high as any man’s work).
By the way, Im telling you, Pope John Paul 2, was also a feminist like that… Did you ever study his work? Then you could see that the nun with whom you spoke had no reason to fear
Then there are feminists like Simone de Bouvoir and Judith Butler who were inspired mainly by Engel’s thoughts on the family, and who don’t believe in gender differences. Their ideology is dangerous because they basically think that being feminine is something despicable and weak. They suffer from low self-esteem probably because their mothers were door mats.
Secondly sir, we don’t denigrade Protestantism, or at least only certain newer tendencies like blessing homosexual marriages etc, which is clearly a bad witness to the whole unbelieving world.
At least my experience is that, whereas Evangelicals at first have suspicions of us, when I talk to Catholics about Evangelicalism many acknowlege that these brothers and sisters are better at certain very crucial things than us… eg. fellowshipping and being joyful about the faith
There will not be women priests in the Catholic Church because its part of apostolic tradition that Jesus became man (m) and choose men to be apostles. in continuity with Old Testament custom too. This is a clear teaching and the Church cannot change it, because She doesn’t have the power to change the truth. He could have chosen eg. to call Mary of Magdala an apostle but He didn’t. So the sacraments were instituted with the 12, not with the 70 disciples eg or with women disciples… However, I agree with you about deacons… There is a woman deacon mentioned in the New Testament and with some widening of the now-used practice of the deaconate, women could perhaps be re-allowed.
Peace and blessings to you good man
And please, be my CAF-friend
M
MissMarlene
Guest
Sweet sister.
I just wanna hug you real tight… I also do pro-life work a tiny bit… You can be proud of the pro-life movement in the States,
I don’t disagree with you in the things you write., I’d also say that Im active in ministry … sometimes at least… I am a grass root evangelist trying to tell atheists, muslims etc about Jesus and I have a desire to work more for unity between Christians.
However, I do sense that feeling is in a lot of this debate. People will spew out emotional words without rational arguments to back them up.
We get used to things being the way they are… if some woman forgives you in the name of Jesus of a sin you comitted against her then that’s okay. Now, but woman are not called to be priests and confession is not practiced like we know it in most traditional protestant churches so there is no need to talk about that.
Indeed most women dont wanna be priests at all. The opening post was about women pastors in other denominations, a ministry we have to respect because God works in mysterious ways that are bigger than ours.
I used to think it totally odd that women were not allowed to be priests in the Church. Because everyone in my Lutheran culture thinks this is ODD, just like they think an all-celibate priesthood is odd/unnatural.
I know many women are serving in the Church … But to be honest I long for the day when you may share your story in the congregation on Sundays and where women prophets will again be allowed to speak publicly when we come together, like Paul wrote about in the Acts of the Apostles. In the early church all important ministries were not gathered in one man but many people each had their gift, and I expect its still like that, and that, in many places our laity has been wrongly passified and the priests are exhausted.
God bless you.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Being a feminist or not is not the issue here but that some “ultra-feminist” types make the priesthood about some sort of hippie liberal college philosophy class nonsense regarding the “male power structure” or whatever BS, so they have to get in on it or else they’re not really equal in all ways to men. I also consider myself a feminist of a certain sort (suffrage, property rights, universal literacy, etc. – all good things), but the Church is not the place for your fight against the social inequalities of the world. If it were, philosophies like “Liberation Theology” (very popular in Latin America) would not be condemned by the Catholic Church. But they are, and rightfully so, as they twist theology to make Christ into some sort of proto-Marxist (which, I should add, has a strange conservative counterpart in certain re-imaginings of the Savior as a sort of proto-Reagan; see for instance the satire of the same in supply-side Jesus). This is wrong, wrong, WRONG, no matter what “-ism” can rightly or wrongly be attached to it.
Any nun or priest or other person who may be worried about the Pope trying to “turn the clock back” ought to take a serious second and third look at the sayings of Jesus Christ, the Savior they supposedly worship and sacrifice for. What they might find is that Christ Jesus Himself often turned the clock back in His fulfillment of the Law. Think about His teaching on divorce in the book of Mark: You have been allowed it out of the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it has been …].
Depending on how you look at it, His teachings in Mark 5 (after the Beatitudes, starting at verse 21 with the first of several “you have heard it said …, but I say …” statements) can also be understood as a “turn back”, in that they turn the people’s understanding (what they had heard) back on itself so as to make the point that the proper understanding of the Law mandates not X (whatever they had heard), but an understanding of X that is Y (what Christ is saying; His interpretation of the Law is the ultimate authority, as He Himself is vested in that same authority as God). It does NOT mandate an abolishing of the Law.
The attempted “Female Clergy” are an attempt at subverting/destroying Christ’s authority by destroying/subverting that which He has instituted. Why? Christ has given us the means to fulfill it (through the clergy we already have!), but as usual, just like the Jews wandering in the desert, some people don’t like it. He feeds them from His own hand and they complain that they don’t like the food. He gives them a Church, established on the Rock of Peter (or Peter’s faith, in deference to the Orthodox position), and they complain that they don’t like this or that aspect of it, and do everything they can to remake it into something they would like more.
This form of stealth complaining against God has serious consequences. When God heard the Israelites complaints in desert (in the book of Numbers), He told the offenders (through Moses and Aaron):
Any nun or priest or other person who may be worried about the Pope trying to “turn the clock back” ought to take a serious second and third look at the sayings of Jesus Christ, the Savior they supposedly worship and sacrifice for. What they might find is that Christ Jesus Himself often turned the clock back in His fulfillment of the Law. Think about His teaching on divorce in the book of Mark: You have been allowed it out of the hardness of your hearts, but from the beginning it has been …].
Depending on how you look at it, His teachings in Mark 5 (after the Beatitudes, starting at verse 21 with the first of several “you have heard it said …, but I say …” statements) can also be understood as a “turn back”, in that they turn the people’s understanding (what they had heard) back on itself so as to make the point that the proper understanding of the Law mandates not X (whatever they had heard), but an understanding of X that is Y (what Christ is saying; His interpretation of the Law is the ultimate authority, as He Himself is vested in that same authority as God). It does NOT mandate an abolishing of the Law.
The attempted “Female Clergy” are an attempt at subverting/destroying Christ’s authority by destroying/subverting that which He has instituted. Why? Christ has given us the means to fulfill it (through the clergy we already have!), but as usual, just like the Jews wandering in the desert, some people don’t like it. He feeds them from His own hand and they complain that they don’t like the food. He gives them a Church, established on the Rock of Peter (or Peter’s faith, in deference to the Orthodox position), and they complain that they don’t like this or that aspect of it, and do everything they can to remake it into something they would like more.
This form of stealth complaining against God has serious consequences. When God heard the Israelites complaints in desert (in the book of Numbers), He told the offenders (through Moses and Aaron):
If I were a “female clergy” person or a supporter of the same, I would be scared reading these words. It is little wonder that those in support of this position convince themselves that all that matters is feeling called to be a servant. Indeed, God DOES call people, as surely as He called Israel out of her captivity and into the desert. But if you don’t respond to the call in the right way (in the case of women and unfit men, by being something other than a priest), if you do so grudgingly or only after trying to turn the tables on God, then in what sense are you following His will? In what sense are you serving Him? In what sense can you expect Him to bless you as He wants to bless you?
S
Samuel63
Guest
Excellent post by dsheremi.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Yes, he’s articulating very well lately. Its actually getting scary.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Got my Tele set up, brother, and boy does it sound! 
Yes, he’s articulating very well lately. Its actually getting scary.
B
benedictus2
Guest
The we did not refer to all. The “we” referred to Catholics because my “we” refers to Catholic not Christianity in general. I don’t know where you got the idea that I might be saying otherwise.
If you want to be respected as a Catholic and you wish Protestants to understand Catholicism then you also have to attemtp to understand them and their interpretation of Scripture.
Which happens to be wrong. I understand their understanding of scripture and their understanding is wrong. Plain and simple.
I know that. They are the equivalent of our priests. But the point is do we need women priests? And the answer is NO.
The verses they use in the New Testament are the ones about the ordinary priesthood: We are a people of priests, prophets and kings.
Now we know, as Catholics, that the Magisterium and tradition have the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible correctly, but that is part of our faith.
And here you are being a relativist. Is it just a matter of part of our faith or is it true? We can’t just fall back on the “I believe what I will believe” because that is total hogwash.
Before they started ordaining women, women pastors and priests are not part of their faith either. It is a new invention.
This is about truth. Not all faiths are equal. Either we have the truth or we don’t. Either it is true that Christ freely willed to choose to men only to be his apostles or or that He bowed to the sexism of His time? The latter is just downright ridiculous.
The question is whether it is God’s will that they serve Him in such a capacity. Read the Bible and you will come to the only credble answer of NO.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
B
benedictus2
Guest
I am conservative and probably ignorant to boot but this is not an oversimplification. Have a look at the women who are the driving force behind priestesses in the Church.
Madam, Marlene. I am a she.Yes, astounding isn’t it that a female should actually propose true feminism as opposed to the “masculinism” that underlie so called “feminist” ideology.
Yes, Marx and Engels. Did someone put a gun to the feminists head so that they have to swallow Marx and Engels rubbish?
No, but the feminists are hoping to emasculate them. Yes, they want to feminize the male that is why they are pro - gay as well.
Quite right. But just look at your “SNAGS” you Sensitive New Age Guys and your Metrosexuals.
Did they put a gun to the woman’s head to abort?
This is not a feminist issue only okay so please leave you feminists- this-and-feminists that- rhetorics out of this debate and start viewing the world with some nuance.
Sorry but it is a feminist issue. Priestesses in the Catholic Church is a feminist issue. It is another variant of the “anything you can do I can do better”.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Brilliant. You hit the nail in the head. The demand by feminists to be “as men” who can have their fun without the consequences is what leads to abortion.
And it is this demand to be free to be promiscous that leads them to decry their very own femininity. There is nothing more revolting, more atrocious than a mother who kills her own completely helpless child so that she can live as she wishes.
You know where feminists got it wrong, when they put too much value on what is essentially masculine and decided that to be taken seriously they must be like that - masculine.
True feminism is when women advance the cause of what is essentially feminine.
What women should have demanded was that essentially feminine calling should have been given equal worth in society.
Adam was not only the one who passed the buck. Eve too by blaming the serpent.
B
benedictus2
Guest
I would not be surprised because it is a fact that priestesses dabble in pagan rituals.
P
PRmerger
Guest
“What” is the ontological truth that women cannot be priests, but they can be nuns. It is true for Catholics, and it’s also true for Protestants. The fact that Protestants do not have the consecrated religious life is sad, but part of the reality of what happens when one divorces oneself from the fullness of Truth.
P
Petergee
Guest
The only thing that disturbs and offends me about it is that by making female “clergy” these denominations are putting a massive obstacle in the way of ecumenism. A woman walking around in clerical dress is as if she were wearing a T shirt saying in huge letters “The Catholic Church (and all the Eastern Orthodox Churches) is totally wrong and our denomination will never ever unite with them, so there!”
B
benedictus2
Guest
Great point! :clapping::clapping::clapping:
- Status