Are you pro-gun, or anti-gun?

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Do you have any idea how things were like down here in the days following Katrina? We have very good reasons for owning guns and having them on hand to face the problem. The problem being there are people who have no qualms with murdering their fellow man despite all morality, reason, or law.

Longing Soul, that argument of yours can also be applied to gun laws. Gun laws are not the all fixing solution to the gun violence. For one in New Orleans- most of the drive by shootings, home invasions, etc are done with illegal guns. Disarming the law abiding citizens of their legaly owned weapons is not going to help. In fact you’re leaving them defenseless to the violence they face everyday.

Good evening EMFrost: How many people did you have to shoot after Katrina? I imagine quite a few since you are still alive.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[LongingSoul]

The idea of world peace, very alluring, don’t know anyone who hasn’t thought about it. But war is a continuation of politics, and throughout recorded history as I have mentioned, statistically speaking there will be no peace save Jesus Christ. Those politics always been the slight issue, but more again to do with the seven deadly sins.

There will always be conflict between men cursed by the effects of Original sin, but it doesn’t follow that war is an inevitability. War should be the exception rather than the rule. Peace should be the rule.

Pro gun advocates often cite the possibility of the King of England turning up with their muskets and pantaloons to take control, as a justification for upholding every part of the constitution… but they must know that this is not realistic. That fear is the result of making war the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

But bullet proof vests protect lives also. If crime is a genuine reality in a place wouldn’t it make more sense to fit every person with bullet proof defenses? That would make a more level playing field as far as the right to ‘security of person’. It is within reach of absolutely every person… just not the specially qualified to own. It would also ensure greater personal safety without the need to make a life and death call over anothers life.

Unfortunately bullet proof garments don’t hold that mystique. They don’t afford one power and esteem. Just greater security.

Actually they are bulky, heavy, and get really hot in the summer. Sometimes the vests fail (Don’t stop a bullet)

But the real corker is that some states, like Connecticut, have passed laws against civilian use of body armor (bullet proof vests) Why ?

 

[LongingSoul]

But the real corker is that some states, like Connecticut, have passed laws against civilian use of body armor (bullet proof vests) Why ?

How do they say it is justified? How does a bullet proof vest hurt anyone? That seems nuts.

 

[LongingSoul]

How do they say it is justified? How does a bullet proof vest hurt anyone? That seems nuts.

It seems suspiciously like a ploy to force people into buying a gun. Perhaps it is saying “if you want to protect yourself from gun crime, you either buy a gun or be a sitting duck. Your choice. Take it or leave it.”

 

[migueltojose]

There will always be conflict between men cursed by the effects of Original sin, but it doesn’t follow that war is an inevitability. War should be the exception rather than the rule. Peace should be the rule.

Pro gun advocates often cite the possibility of the King of England turning up with their muskets and pantaloons to take control, as a justification for upholding every part of the constitution… but they must know that this is not realistic. That fear is the result of making war the rule rather than the exception.

But if any combination of social upheaval, revolt, rioting, revolution, war (incl. organized crime, economic, ethnic, drug and gang), occurs near you just one time in your lifetime of say 80 - 90 years, which is statistically very realistic. Then it is not irrational fear. It is prudent and responsible. Even if everything is fine 99.9999% of the time that still leaves 3 days of serious danger. It only takes one.

The world is fragile. We are fragile.

 

[LongingSoul]

But if any combination of social upheaval, revolt, rioting, revolution, war (incl. organized crime, economic, ethnic, drug and gang), occurs near you just one time in your lifetime of say 80 - 90 years, which is statistically very realistic. Then it is not irrational fear. It is prudent and responsible. Even if everything is fine 99.9999% of the time that still leaves 3 days of serious danger. It only takes one.

The world is fragile. We are fragile.

I don’t accept that at all and I think that is a great failing that Jesus Himself addressed by His life, death and resurrection. The power of forgiveness and the reality of the brotherhood that exists between all men. The reality of the ‘communion of Saints’.

You might have your own cultural examples of this phenomenon… but the ANZAC tradition of visiting Gallipoli on ANZAC day was built on rejection of fear and mistrust that could have resulted from war.

Australians began visiting Gallipoli in Turkey where our worst 1stWW losses occurred… shortly after the war ended. It began to be a pilgrimage site and the Turks, our mortal enemies, chose to tend and maintain the graves of Aussie and NZ diggers for us.

In 1934 the President of Turkey, Ataturk, addressed the visitors and a wonderful relationship between our countries began. He said…

“Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well.”

That is immortalised at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. For the last 10 years or so, the Turkish regiments have even been represented in our ANZAC day marches walking along side our own veterans.

The same gesture is being floated for future ANZAC marches for Japanese troop representatives. We have a great relationship with Japan and war can mean the beginning a great bonds of friendship rather than everlasting mistrust, if that is desired.

That’s why it seems strange that the Constitution continues to immortalise the fear and mistrust of England in thier justification for rights. England are pudgy fluffy pussycats. They can’t even win a cricket match convincingly let alone take over a country!

 

[EMFrost]

Good evening EMFrost: How many people did you have to shoot after Katrina? I imagine quite a few since you are still alive.

Thank you,
Gary

My house was not looted, but many people I know were looted or had been attempted to be looted. I live further into the woods and the looters quickly picked up from my neighbors and the warning shots they fired that most everyone living out here is armed. It was still terrifying considering the looters were often armed themselves and they weren’t just looking for food and water. The people down here are kind. Ask for food and- my gosh -water, and we’ll help you out in jiffy! Who wouldn’t? I just don’t understand the armed robbing and looting. I remember listening to local stations on our hand crank radio about all the chaos in New Orleans. Yet another shooting here, looting for the fiftieth time there, and National Guard coming.
My Dad would stay up at night with his gun to watch over us. Not that we were often asleep- we’d either close the windows and gag from the intense heat or open them and deal with our ever large mosquito population (just fyi- Listerine works better than bug spray). Power was out for three months. Phone lines were down too, but not as long, and if you lived where I did, my street and those around us did not have cell phone coverage. Even then who would you call? Police couldn’t get to you. There were down trees everywhere that had to be cut through and moved first.

I reference Katrina because if you had told me before that storm things could get that ugly that fast- I would have been skeptical too. In fact if you told me there was a storm we would have that much trouble waiting out I would have laughed. I mean like I said- we’re not in New Orleans- we have a good area safe from both crime and rising water. It’s unreal, but it was the reality. I am really thankful we prepared for the worst. What’s scary is as bad as Katrina was- it really could have been worse.

 

[Annie39]

Actually they are bulky, heavy, and get really hot in the summer. Sometimes the vests fail (Don’t stop a bullet)

But the real corker is that some states, like Connecticut, have passed laws against civilian use of body armor (bullet proof vests) Why ?

Oh Zoltan. Bullet proof vests! Oh please. I think that it is clear that not everyone is necessarily a critical thinker. Some people are not logical but emotional. LS. appears to be an ideologue. IMHO it is impossible to change an ideologue’s opinion with logical arguments. It doesn’t matter what anyone says if a person shoots down one of the ideologue’s arguments, that person will tack to another idea that the opponent then has to shoot down and this will be endless. If the ideologue’s opponent causes him/her to think too often s/he lobs ad hominem angry remarks and shuts down the discussion. L.S. has put me on her ignore list.

This is simply all too familiar in my life I think one example will suffice to show you what I mean. An ex-Catholic in my life has been convinced that Jesus did indeed mean what He said when He said “This is My Body”. And she believes that that was a miracle. She just says that she doesn’t believe that that miracle happens today. One could argue with her until one is blue in the face and prove the truths of the Catholic Church but she ignores this and moves on to something else. She is an ideologue. She doesn’t want to believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church so don’t confuse her with facts. Now, I understand why this ex-Catholic doesn’t want to be Catholic. She wants to live her own life and wants no authority above herself. The only thing that I don’t understand why L.S. is so fixated on the USA when there are plenty of problems in her neck of the woods. Brisbane has a higher violent crime rate than my town. We are a “shall issue” conceal carry state (Arizona). The only reason that I know this is due to the research that I have done over the approximately year that I have been discussing gun control on C.A . I am not fixated on Australia.

Annie

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

My house was not looted, but many people I know were looted or had been attempted to be looted. I live further into the woods and the looters quickly picked up from my neighbors and the warning shots they fired that most everyone living out here is armed. It was still terrifying considering the looters were often armed themselves and they weren’t just looking for food and water. The people down here are kind. Ask for food and- my gosh -water, and we’ll help you out in jiffy! Who wouldn’t? I just don’t understand the armed robbing and looting. I remember listening to local stations on our hand crank radio about all the chaos in New Orleans. Yet another shooting here, looting for the fiftieth time there, and National Guard coming.
My Dad would stay up at night with his gun to watch over us. Not that we were often asleep- we’d either close the windows and gag from the intense heat or open them and deal with our ever large mosquito population (just fyi- Listerine works better than bug spray). Power was out for three months. Phone lines were down too, but not as long, and if you lived where I did, my street and those around us did not have cell phone coverage. Even then who would you call? Police couldn’t get to you. There were down trees everywhere that had to be cut through and moved first.

I reference Katrina because if you had told me before that storm things could get that ugly that fast- I would have been skeptical too. In fact if you told me there was a storm we would have that much trouble waiting out I would have laughed. I mean like I said- we’re not in New Orleans- we have a good area safe from both crime and rising water. It’s unreal, but it was the reality. I am really thankful we prepared for the worst. What’s scary is as bad as Katrina was- it really could have been worse.

Well, all arguments and points of view aside, I am very glad that you and your family came out of the whole thing okay.

Thank you
Gary

 

[LongingSoul]

My house was not looted, but many people I know were looted or had been attempted to be looted. I live further into the woods and the looters quickly picked up from my neighbors and the warning shots they fired that most everyone living out here is armed. It was still terrifying considering the looters were often armed themselves and they weren’t just looking for food and water. The people down here are kind. Ask for food and- my gosh -water, and we’ll help you out in jiffy! Who wouldn’t? I just don’t understand the armed robbing and looting. I remember listening to local stations on our hand crank radio about all the chaos in New Orleans. Yet another shooting here, looting for the fiftieth time there, and National Guard coming.
My Dad would stay up at night with his gun to watch over us. Not that we were often asleep- we’d either close the windows and gag from the intense heat or open them and deal with our ever large mosquito population (just fyi- Listerine works better than bug spray). Power was out for three months. Phone lines were down too, but not as long, and if you lived where I did, my street and those around us did not have cell phone coverage. Even then who would you call? Police couldn’t get to you. There were down trees everywhere that had to be cut through and moved first.

I reference Katrina because if you had told me before that storm things could get that ugly that fast- I would have been skeptical too. In fact if you told me there was a storm we would have that much trouble waiting out I would have laughed. I mean like I said- we’re not in New Orleans- we have a good area safe from both crime and rising water. It’s unreal, but it was the reality. I am really thankful we prepared for the worst. What’s scary is as bad as Katrina was- it really could have been worse.

Gun restrictions aren’t designed to prevent all guns. Living on isolated properties, towns and out stations present a whole range of reasons why gun ownership is prudent. Even here with the very strict gun laws, most everyone in those circumstances has at least one rifle.

The question is would all those looters be such force of armed aggression were their access to guns limited overall. One town making strict gun laws on its own is more about setting a benchmark for the purposes of legal recourse than eliminating the access to guns when guns are so available in cities down the road. To really make an effect on the volume of guns within the country, it has to be a national initiative.

Katrina was a state of emergency situation and it isn’t realistic to use a state of emergency to set the standard for general life.

 

[Annie39]

Well, all arguments and points of view aside, I am very glad that you and your family came out of the whole thing okay.

Thank you
Gary

Gary you asked EMFrost “How many people did you have to shoot after Katrina? I imagine quite a few since you are still alive. “

I have to ask, were you unaware of all that was going on in New Orleans? Do you not know that the citizen’s guns were confiscated in that city? Do you not know of the outright murders of some of the citizens there? Your question absolutely astounded me.

Annie

 

[migueltojose]

Katrina was a state of emergency situation and it isn’t realistic to use a state of emergency to set the standard for general life.

Guns are not for the standard for general life… they are precisely for states of emergencies… which do happen occasionally…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also guns are not inherently evil, the seven deadly sins are, Do you understand this yet?

Evil and good are moral terms that apply to entities that can make moral choices. A gun is a non-volitional object. Guns have no power of choice; they simply act according to their identity, their nature. Unlike a gun, the user of a firearm possesses free-will, and can be morally judged for his actions. It is only the user of a gun who is good or evil: a woman who uses a gun to shoot a man wishing to rape her is acting selfishly to save her life — and is judged as good; a bank robber using a gun to rob a bank is acting irrationally and selflessly (by placing himself in such a predicament, and attempting to achieve values by theft) — and is judged as evil. To say that a gun is intrinsically evil, because it can be used by criminals — and corrupt governments — to rob peaceful citizens, is like saying water is evil because people can drown in it.

Seven deadly sins. The wayward political agenda is your issue. should be self evident after that prideful self serving move yesterday.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=is%20a%20gun%20an%20intrinsic%20evil&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcapitalism.org%2Fguns%2Fisnt-owning-a-gun-inherently-evil%2F&ei=FEqNU9mqELPjsATq7YKwBg&usg=AFQjCNGXKhJSj5yffCHYecQrYgEwDgqmAg

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s why it seems strange that the Constitution continues to immortalise the fear and mistrust of England in thier justification for rights. England are pudgy fluffy pussycats

Another false conclusion, which your denial won’t allow any reasoning. You have the fear backwards, that is why your conclusion is false. You can’t see it any other way because of denial. No world peace is coming save Jesus Christ. An argument historically I am certain you do not want to have.

England is a close Allie, how about Australia?

It all started in China, where gunpowder was first created. In the ninth century. Man had no problem abusing and killing others in recorded history without guns. Well documented!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Do you realize most humans have one or two of the seven deadly sins which introduce all seven into the realm of an individuals reality in Catholic theology, from here anything can and may indeed occur. You are see a rising manifestation of pure evil.

Football can become an intrinsic evil, basketball can become and intrinsic evil. People are what make all of it an intrinsic evil. People do this not the gun, the football team, the basketball team, the ocean or anything else…People.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So what are we saying, we should disarm the innocent in what we must conclude by the fear driven agenda-anti-gun is an evil society. So we disarm the innocent and do what with the evil?

Hope the removal of guns stops the evil? Where in pre-gun-power history can this false proposed reality be verified? Oh right it can’t because that is a MYTH!!!

We should empower the innocent and restrict the evil, thats the issue in the nut shell. We are again attempting to restrict the good and empower the evil. This is what has occured the past 50-years with behavior.

Its does not make any sense. I hope you are seeing this by now.

 

[LongingSoul]

Guns are not for the standard for general life… they are precisely for states of emergencies… which do happen occasionally…

But usually it is the trained and well regulated forces with the authority to step up to the mark in a state of emergency.

Looters are naturally going to be more heavily armed where guns are so much more easily accessible, so the fear of being murdered is going to far greater, so the desire to be more thoroughly armed increases putting more guns into the community to be accessed for by those with criminal intent, making the criminals more thoroughly armed making people even more fearful of the threats to their lives making the need for bigger guns more important putting even more guns into the general community where they are ripe for illegal use…

It is possible to exist in societies that experience crime… and feel relatively secure despite not owning a gun. There is a great deal of comfort in the policy of limiting guns to certain practical uses, even though criminals may steal them and use them in crime. Having an outlook over the bigger picture makes for the best overall policy.

 

[Gorgias]

And honestly, here is where it is nuts. Each person is a self ordained soldier of war. But is each person out there defending his community against the enemy? No. He is about himself. His stuff, his blood. Those with his DNA. This is not the ‘well regulated militia’ that the constitution envisaged I’m quite sure.

And yet, this is precisely the use that the courts have upheld. From The Library of Congress’ overview on the 2nd amendment: “On June 26, 2008, in District of Columbia v. Heller (PDF), the United States Supreme Court issued its first decision since 1939 interpreting the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Court ruled that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes such as self-defense.”.

When private guns are stolen, no one blames the gun owner. He doesn’t have to be accountable for his weapon with the same sort of vigilance as the proper public authorities. If he were, how would so many find their way into criminal hands. Just wouldn’t happen. There is no accountability for the private owner. Just suggestions.

I see. So, your problem isn’t with gun ownership, it’s with theft of guns? I agree; theft is bad. Why is it the fault of the party who has been robbed?

Then again, maybe it’s that your problem isn’t with gun ownership, it’s with irresponsible gun ownership? I agree; gun owners should be responsible. Now – how many firearms are owned in the U.S.? How many incidents of improper handling and/or storage are there, each year? Don’t the statistics show that, overwhelmingly, legal owners of firearms in the U.S. do evidence reasonable, proper handling and storage of their firearms? That being the case… what’s your case, again?

 

[LongingSoul]

So what are we saying, we should disarm the innocent in what we must conclude by the fear driven agenda-anti-gun is an evil society. So we disarm the innocent and do what with the evil?

Look after the cents and the dollars will look after themselves. Taking guns out of the community will mean they are less accessible to those with criminal intent.