Are you Pro-Life or Pro-Choice

[E.E.N.S]

A Catholic MUST be pro-life.
The death penalty has nothing to do with pro-life or pro abortion. Catholics are free to support or oppose the death penalty.

The death penalty, permitted under Catholic moral teaching, has absolutely nothing to do with being pro-life.

To claim otherwise is to fall into the liberal and pro-abortion trap of obscurring the real issue. In addition, those who subscribe to joining these two unrelated moral issues mis-state Catholic teaching.

Finally, it uses this false thinking to convince faithful Catholic to vote for pro-Abortion candidates because they often favor restricting or eliminating the death penalty.

The death penalty is a matter of prudential judgment. It is not a life issue like abortion, embryonic stem cell research, euthanasia, or homosexual marriage or homosexual adoption.

Note this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=134752

CCC 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

Quoted for truth.

 

[Chiltepin]

Hmm maybe I should have said anti-death penalty (In America.)

While I would say abortion is wrong for any country, I would say the death penalty is wrong for the United States.

How is that not a life issue? How is maintaining a position that one sees as fully consistent with upholding the dignity of human life “falling into a trap”? Why should we have to compromise by accepting the way that the party lines are drawn right now? I don’t vote for pro-abortion candidates, but I sure don’t feel good about it when voting in this fashion forces me to vote for pro death penalty candidates.

Sorry if those questions were already answered. I came into this thread pretty late.

 

[August_Ambrose]

1. The number of abortions in this country has increased DRAMATICALLY since Roe Vs. Wade was forced upon us. And yes, if abortions were illegal (as in the DOCTOR or “health professional” performing them was punished) the number of abortions would also diminish. With the public funding the current administration is attempting to funnel into abortion the number will probably increase, compounded by the fact that the current administration wishes to remove those publically passed laws that restrict abortions in some way (the partial birth abortion bans, parental notification laws, waiting periods, etc.). Roe vs. Wade made state laws banning abortions “unconstitutional” - and yes, it has dramatically increased them in number, not just provided for their funding. It removed all restrictions and prohibitions on abortion and turned it into a “right.”
2. ABSOLUTELY yes, we should pray for the women who procure abortions - as well as the doctors and nurses who are complicit in performing them and the politicians who wish to remove restrictions and/or use public funds to fund them. Same for politicians who wish to force partial birth abortions on us and allow and/or use public funds for EMBRYONIC stem cell research (I have NOTHING against adult stem cell research and other non-embryonic sources - and in fact I’m an avid supporter of these other avenues). Where do you get that I’m against praying for them?

But our responsibility doesn’t end with “praying for their conversion”. As citizens of our nation we have a responsibility to ensure that our government protects the “right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” - particularly for the voiceless. There are many voiceless in this country, but by far, the largest group are the unborn. We have a right and responsibility to demand that our government protect the innocent and helpless. That is its job, after all.

I’m a little confused anyway - what are you calling “rhetoric” in my post?

some catholics beleive that Roe vs Wade doesn’t increase the number of ladies seeking abortions. 60% of the abortions are second and more abortions meaning that they are birth control abortions, these would go on even if Roe ve Wade is removed, they are the wealthy and would get their abortions at some health spa, and pay for them themselves. I suggest legistration to make them pay for thier abortions, also I support legistration to call the second and more abortion murder and take them to trial and charge them with at lest second degree murder.
The number of abortions that have dramaticaly increadedd are the abortions by ladies who in tghe past paid for their own abortions at some health spa, they continue today numbering 60% of the paid for abortions in America

 

[August_Ambrose]

some catholics beleive that Roe vs Wade doesn’t increase the number of ladies seeking abortions. 60% of the abortions are second and more abortions meaning that they are birth control abortions, these would go on even if Roe ve Wade is removed, they are the wealthy and would get their abortions at some health spa, and pay for them themselves. I suggest legistration to make them pay for thier abortions, also I support legistration to call the second and more abortion murder and take them to trial and charge them with at lest second degree murder.
The number of abortions that have dramaticaly increadedd are the abortions by ladies who in tghe past paid for their own abortions at some health spa, they continue today numbering 60% of the paid for abortions in America

Do you realy think if stem cell research wasn’t in God’s plan that it would be as sucessful. just wondering.

 

[DrPiano]

Do you realy think if stem cell research wasn’t in God’s plan that it would be as sucessful. just wondering.

FIRST, success does NOT equal “in line with God’s Plan”. As Jeremiah laments:

1: Righteous art thou, O LORD, when I complain to thee; yet I would plead my case before thee. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why do all who are treacherous thrive?

(Jeremiah 12:1)

or as David says:

1: Truly God is good to the upright, to those who are pure in heart.
2: But as for me, my feet had almost stumbled, my steps had well nigh slipped.
3: For I was envious of the arrogant, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4: For they have no pangs; their bodies are sound and sleek.
5: They are not in trouble as other men are; they are not stricken like other men.
6: Therefore pride is their necklace; violence covers them as a garment.
7: Their eyes swell out with fatness, their hearts overflow with follies.
8: They scoff and speak with malice; loftily they threaten oppression.
9: They set their mouths against the heavens, and their tongue struts through the earth.
10: Therefore the people turn and praise them; and find no fault in them.
11: And they say, “How can God know? Is there knowledge in the Most High?”
12: Behold, these are the wicked; always at ease, they increase in riches.
13: All in vain have I kept my heart clean and washed my hands in innocence.
14: For all the day long I have been stricken, and chastened every morning.
15: If I had said, “I will speak thus,” I would have been untrue to the generation of thy children.
16: But when I thought how to understand this, it seemed to me a wearisome task,
17: until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I perceived their end.

(Psalm 73:1-17)

SECOND - As I mentioned before, there is a BIG difference between EMBRYONIC stem cell research (from which there have been NO cures to date - or clinically usable treatments) and ADULT stem cells (of which there are many varieties and some very promising new techniques, and from which there have been quite a few treatments and cures). Although scientists (and I belong to the scientific/medical community) have promised much from embryonic stem cell research, the fruits of it have been empty so far. It is not anti-scientific, anti-cures, or anti-medicine to be against the use of public funds for embryonic destruction and experiments on the result of killing living human beings - or to be against permitting such research to take place!

Such reasoning has been tried in the past. Scientists at Tuskegee reasoned that our African American brothers and sisters weren’t people (or at least not people worthy of being treated with dignity), so studying the progression of syphilis in them when they could have been treated and cured with a quick course of antibiotics was “ethical.” Such research bore many fruits and was quite successful. That doesn’t mean it was ethical OR within God’s plan. Mengele reasoned that the Jews in Auschwitz weren’t people deserving of dignity and subjected them to many awful and horrendous experiments. Some of those experiments bore fruit that is quite useful in the present day in understanding several things about medicine. It doesn’t make it right or ethical or within God’s plan. In fact, there are people (I’m personally torn on the issue) who believe it is not ethical to even USE the information he obtained (or those at Tusgegee obtained) through their unethical practices.

As for abortions… you make a lot of claims about the demographics of those who seek and obtain abortions. If it weren’t in danger of dragging the thread off topic, I’d firmly ask that you provide your sources for such claims. I’d also strongly suggest that you back up any such claims you make in the future, on this thread or on others.

 

[Neolithic]

I don’t know how I feel about the death penalty, to be honest. Some crimes you just know are so gruesome and awful, the most deserving punishment is death. I think a lot of people are anti-death penalty until something happens to their own.

Abortion? Completely against it. .

 

[rpp]

some catholics beleive that Roe vs Wade doesn’t increase the number of ladies seeking abortions.

And some Catholic believe in the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, Santa Clause and that Hitler and Judas are in in Heaven It does not make it true.

The odor of a sock puppet is stronger than ever.