Are you really Catholic? Let's do the Creeds

[Shin]

Here’s a little poll, are you truly Catholic, are you comfortable being Catholic, speaking the Creeds of the Church, praying them, preaching them.

So here’s a little prayer marathon… You’ll refresh yourself on the Trinity, the Church, and… For our souls… let’s do the Creeds!

Apostle’s Creed
Symbolum Apostolorum

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
And in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And is seated at the right hand of God, the Father almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge
The living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic Church;
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Nicene Creed
Symbolum Nicaenum

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God; Light of Light; true God of true God. Begotten not made; of one being with the Father; by Whom all things were made. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven. And was made Flesh by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: And was made man.

He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascending into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father. And He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is no less adored, and glorified: Who spoke by the Prophets. And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead. And the life of the world to come.

Athanasian Creed
Quicumque vult

WHOEVER wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith. For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.

This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty. What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal. Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being. So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being. Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, there are not three gods, but one God. The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. However, there are not three lords, but one Lord. For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords. The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone. The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son. There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.

So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshiped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity. He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity. It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man. As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother. He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh. He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity. Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ. And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God. He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person. As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.

He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day. He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire. This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved. Amen.

 

[Shin]

Tridentine Creed
Professio fidei Tridentina

I, N., with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church maketh use of. To wit:

I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Apostolic and Ecclesiastical traditions and all other observances and constitutions of that same Church I firmly admit to and embrace.

I also accept the Holy Scripture according to that sense which holy mother the Church hath held, and doth hold, and to whom it belongeth to judge the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all are necessary for everyone; to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also receive and admit the accepted and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments.

I embrace and accept each and everything which has been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.

I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that a conversion takes place of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either species alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I steadfastly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honored and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated. I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be kept and retained, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them.

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and teacher of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, I do so profess and swear to maintain inviolate and with firm constancy with the help of God until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Only the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed has any authority in Orthodoxy, as it was promulgated by two Ecumenical Councils. The Second forbade any changes in it.

The Apostles’ Creed is true as far as it goes, but it is only a local Western baptismal creed, and has no ecumenical authority or liturgical use.

The Athanasian Symbol is somtimes printed the Greek Horologion (Book of Hours) without Filioque. Its teaching is accepted, but it has no liturgical use.

 

[juliamajor]

Creeds should be simple and to the point. The more wordy they get the more you forget or get something wrong. Tridentine strikes me more as a loyalty oath than a creed.

 

[Ralph4454]

yes

 

[AlanF]

The Tridentine Creed is my favorite.

 

[Shin]

The Tridentine Creed is my favorite.

I do love it too.

I didn’t post the Chalcedonian Creed, but anyone who wants to can look it up. I had trouble trying to find a translation of it I felt was reliably sourced and so reliably done in language.

It will give you some more Trinitarian insight if you do it however!

 

[DixitDominus]

The Athanasian Creed is pretty much amazing.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

I agree with a prior poster. The “Tridentine Creed” clearly is a post-Vatican I loyalty oath, both in terms of its content (“by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching”), and its structure (“And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God.”)

A strict reading would seem to bind one to the EF (“Ecclesiastical traditions and all other observances”) and reject even that Scriptural study approved and allowed by Pius XII in DIVINO AFFLANTE SPIRITU (“Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”)

It also seems to inappropriately elevate ecclesiastical traditions and ceremonials (“receive and admit the accepted and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church”) to the level of dogma.

There’s probably a reason why we don’t say this every Sunday, or ever for that matter. So I guess the fact that I can wholeheartedly say the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds only makes me something less than Catholic per the OP. Now I need someone with some real authority to tell me that I’m excommunicated because I believe “only” the Nicene Creed.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I accept the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed as recited in my Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church.

That is without the filoque.

 

[Lutheranteach]

3.75 of the four…do I get partial credit?

 

[roselily]

I believe the Creeds and love the Creeds also!

:curtsey::angel1:

Yes,

 

[AJV]

I agree with a prior poster. The “Tridentine Creed” clearly is a post-Vatican I loyalty oath, both in terms of its content (“by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching”), and its structure (“And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God.”)

A strict reading would seem to bind one to the EF (“Ecclesiastical traditions and all other observances”) and reject even that Scriptural study approved and allowed by Pius XII in DIVINO AFFLANTE SPIRITU (“Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.”)

It also seems to inappropriately elevate ecclesiastical traditions and ceremonials (“receive and admit the accepted and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church”) to the level of dogma.

There’s probably a reason why we don’t say this every Sunday, or ever for that matter. So I guess the fact that I can wholeheartedly say the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds only makes me something less than Catholic per the OP. Now I need someone with some real authority to tell me that I’m excommunicated because I believe “only” the Nicene Creed.

Which is why the Creed of Pius IV (and its descendants) was only used in the reception of converts, when (IMHO) it’s entirely appropriate. The ecclesiastical traditions bit is not the tradition in themselves, but in the power and ability of the Church to institute them and command their observance vs. “do-it-yourself” - which question touches on the authority left ot eh Church by Christ.

Neither is anyone bound to the EF, because the “received and approved” rites are those received by the Church and approved by its solemn authority - which extends to any rite duly promulgated. Once duly promulgated, it is indeed “received and approved”. What people are bound to is not introducing novel rites on their own - such rites cannot claim to be “received” by the Church, nor are they “approved” by its supreme authority. Scripture study is also not averse to the unanimous consent of the Fathers in the matters of faith. DA lays out the permissible and non-permissible guidlines in this respect.

 

[Dogmatist]

I accept the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed as recited in my Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church.

That is without the filoque.

You don’t accept the Filioque or you just don’t recite it?

If the former, why are you in communion with Rome if you consider its dogma heretical? Rejection of Catholic dogma among Eastern Catholics is something I’ve encountered before and I find it deeply troubling.

The Eastern Orthodox seem to have a lot more sense than Eastern Catholics when it comes to doctrinal questions. Either you believe that Rome has the faith or you don’t.

I think it’s time for a bit more honesty from Eastern Catholics.

 

[Dogmatist]

It also seems to inappropriately elevate ecclesiastical traditions and ceremonials (“receive and admit the accepted and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church”) to the level of dogma.

You forget the principle of lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of prayer is the law of faith. The Church prays as it believes and believes as it prays. Liturgy and dogma are intimately related to one another, which means that the liturgy carries dogmatic force and cannot be arbitrarily changed. The tradition of our forefathers must be received and preserved with reverence:
*
“It is absurd and a detestable shame, that we should suffer those traditions to be changed, which we have received from the fathers of old.” *- St. Thomas Aquinas

In the Eastern Churches, this sense of the importance of the integrity of the Church’s public prayer is much more widespread. It is a deep shame that the critical axiom of lex orandi, lex credendi has been largely lost in the West. We’ve seen the devastating results of the abandonment of this principle in the so-called liturgical “reform”.

 

[rovimax]

Sad to say in the Philippines only the Apostle’s Creed is recited in the Masses. Maybe 1% of Philippine Catholics know about the other Creeds.

 

[patrick457]

Sad to say in the Philippines only the Apostle’s Creed is recited in the Masses. Maybe 1% of Philippine Catholics know about the other Creeds.

Yep, I can vouch for the truth of this statement. I wonder why the Nicene Creed is left to gather dust?

And, since we’re talking about creeds - which I fully believe and love, here’s one variant from another liturgical rite of the Church :

THE MOZARABIC CREDO

Hear it chanted here (in full) and here (in part)

Crédimus in unum Deum Patrem omnipoténtem, factórem coeli et terrae, visibílium ómnium et invisibílium Conditórem.
Et in unum Dóminum nostrum Jesum Christum, Fílium Dei Unigénitum, et ex Patre natum ante ómnia sæcula; Deum ex Deo, Lumen ex Lúmine.
Deum verum ex Deo vero; natum non factum, Omoúsion Patri, hoc est, ejúsdem cum Patre substántiae; per quem ómnia facta sunt, quae in caelo, et quae in terra.
Qui propter nos hómines, et propter nostram salútem, descendit de caelis, et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est.
Passus sub Póntio Piláto, sepúltus, tértia die resurréxit, ascéndit ad caelos, sedet ad déxteram Dei Patris omnipoténtis.
Inde ventúrus est judicáre vivos et mórtuos, cujus regni non erit finis.
Et in Spíritum Sanctum, Dóminum vivificatórem, et ex Patre et Fílio procedéntem.
Cum Patre et Fílio adorándum et conglorificándum; qui locútus est per prophétas.
Et unam, sanctam, Cathólicam et Apostólicam Ecclésiam.
Confitémur unum baptísma in remissiónem peccatórum.
Expectámus resurrectiónem mortuórum, et vitam ventúri saeculi.
Amen.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth, Creator of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God; Light from Light; true God from true God;
Born, not made, omousion to the Father; that is, of the same substance with the Father; through Him all things were made, which are in heaven and which are on earth.
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was buried, rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life,
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
With the Father and the Son adored and conglorified; who spoke through the prophets.
And one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.
Amen.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You don’t accept the Filioque or you just don’t recite it?

It is not required to be recited.

If the former, why are you in communion with Rome if you consider its dogma heretical? Rejection of Catholic dogma among Eastern Catholics is something I’ve encountered before and I find it deeply troubling.

Just to be precise in the terms we use I believe that the filoque is a doctrine not dogma. I believe, from the research I have done for a paper I wrote when I was an undergraduate on the filoque, that I can support it.

I would counter with the question as to how can a single Church change a formulation of an Ecumenical Council without another Ecumenical Council? I would also ask why Pope John Paul II (not sure about the current pope) would omit the filoque when he would recite the Creed in Latin?

I believe that many Latin Catholics place too much of an emphasis on the filoque.

As for your other question, it really is none of your concern why I “stay” Catholic when I have the support of my spiritual director, pastor, and the superiors of my order.

The Eastern Orthodox seem to have a lot more sense than Eastern Catholics when it comes to doctrinal questions. Either you believe that Rome has the faith or you don’t.

Rome has nothing to do with it. I believe that the Church has the Faith.

I think it’s time for a bit more honesty from Eastern Catholics.

And I think it is time for a bit less triumphalism from our Latin Catholic brothers.

I also am tired of a litmus test for Eastern Catholics set up by Latin Catholics to test our Catholicity.

 

[Seamus_L]

Mention the filioque on an Eastern forum and you’ll see alot more extreme responses then you will on a predominantly RC forum. In fact I’ve heard some of the Orthodox in Communion variety suggest that Roman Catholics also need to remove the filioque because it’s a major obstacle for the Orthodox.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Mention the filioque on an Eastern forum and you’ll see alot more extreme responses then you will on a predominantly RC forum. In fact I’ve heard some of the Orthodox in Communion variety suggest that Roman Catholics also need to remove the filioque because it’s a major obstacle for the Orthodox.

My argument for the removal of it is that the Creed was forumated at an Ecumenical Council and that is what it takes to make changes to it. The filoque was added at a local council of the Latin Church in Europe so it should not be there.