Are you really Catholic?

[Lost_Wanderer]

But isn’t it our vocation as Catholics to try to help the twisted be healed and become become untwisted, and help them learn sorrow for sins and mercy and help rehabilitate them? Granted, it is not always possible.

Also, a lot of people who do horribly things are also horribly ill in some way, shape, or form. Not ALL of them, but God alone truly knows what is wrong with people.’ And the crimes they commit probably hurt their families, too, as well as their victims and their victims’ families. One person can cause so much suffering.

Whenever I think of the quote attributed to Teresa of Avila, about how Christ has no body now but yours," referring to after the Ascension, as a personal call to do fulfill our Baptismal promise by doing what we can to help Jesus find the lost sheep and that only God has the right to give up on people; including the taking of lives, which is society’s ultimate way of giving up on and disposing of people.

Obviously, that’s just my interpretation…maybe it’s points to what I need to be doing, because we are all called to serve differently…No judgment intended.

I’m not saying that it’s absolutely impossible, however I’m afraid it’s just rarely possible. I mean of think of the deeds done by the people I’ve cited. They did these things for a majority of their lifetimes. Personally, I find just the thought of approaching such individuals life threatening enough. For them to change would be nothing short of miracle.

And the thing about miracles is, only God can do them.

However, until that time comes, at least keep them locked up and enforce measures to make them think about what they’ve done.

 

[stbruno]

i’m glad they are leaving… I sometimes thhink that’s the only way to show to the bishop & whomever… that we true Catholics would like to… Hellllooooooooo… go to a CATHOLIC Church on Sunday… and whenever…

too bad some people live in small towns where there isn’t much choice of what Church to go to…

I am concerned though if they are actually going anywhere else? Or have they just stopped going. If they have found another Catholic church, that’s great, but if they just aren’t going anywhere or we have driven them to explore outside of the Catholic church, then that’s just horrible.

 

[kdq042007]

I see the hot topic of the thread is a stance on life, and the death penalty. If I could redress the original title of Are you really Catholic?? As the previous poster said, some are driven out and feel they are not welcome. I am one of those and am seeking a way back through a disconnected attempt to understand the catholic faith. So, I question if I really am Catholic. I am halfway to Buddhism, LOL. By definition, I would say yes, as I am baptised as such, have receievd all required sacraments, and have never professed any other faith nor officially joined another denomination, although I have attended. Justice and mercy have been mentined in the thread, and love for our felow man, regardless of their standing, or how they have wronged us. So, what makes one really Catholic?

Do Justice, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly with Thy God. – Abraham J. Heschel

 

[ishii]

With regard to the death penalty debate portion of this thread, a thought:

I recall a debate on the death penalty in which the point was made thus: “if the birdman of Alcatraz had killed another inmate while in prison, what would you do to punish him, take away his birds?” The point being, I guess, that justice sometimes requires the death penalty. Overall, however, I tend to agree with those who say we should put the criminals in prison rather than execute them - while in prison there is a chance that they might repent and be saved, whereas, if they are executed, if they didn’t repent then they are lost forever.

With regard to the “are you really Catholic” part of the thread, FAB wrote:

I pointed out that Prolife is an extremely important issue but to be Catholic and to follow the words of Jesus our concerns had to be much broader

Not so fast. The right to life is the right from which all others flow: without life, what good is healthcare, education, immigrant rights, etc. We must be pro-life, first and foremost, politically. If a politician thinks people should be able to kill the unborn, then I don’t really care what that politician thinks about poverty, or other rights. I will oppose that politician on the grounds that the politician is wrong on the fundamental issue of life. In fact, I find that so many politicians tend to make a big fuss about war, poverty, immigrant rights - all the lefty causes- and at the same time, they are pro-abortion. When it comes to the fundamental issue of right to life for the weakest, most vulnerable of our society, the unborn - they are a bunch of phonies. Honest, good Catholics can disagree about what best policies should be enacted to help the poor - some favor more government, some favor a free-market approach. But when it comes to abortion, there is only one Catholic position. And abortion is not just another issue to lumped together with the other issues.

Ishii

 

[cheese_sdc]

You know, every time I read something like this I think of Luke 18:

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[FAB]

I see the hot topic of the thread is a stance on life, and the death penalty. If I could redress the original title of Are you really Catholic?? As the previous poster said, some are driven out and feel they are not welcome. I am one of those and am seeking a way back through a disconnected attempt to understand the catholic faith. So, I question if I really am Catholic. I am halfway to Buddhism, LOL. By definition, I would say yes, as I am baptised as such, have receievd all required sacraments, and have never professed any other faith nor officially joined another denomination, although I have attended. Justice and mercy have been mentined in the thread, and love for our felow man, regardless of their standing, or how they have wronged us. So, what makes one really Catholic?

Do Justice, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly with Thy God. – Abraham J. Heschel

The basic precepts to be a Christian is to know Jesus and to open your heart and mind to his word. The be a Catholic Christian it is to accept the Church as the one established by Christ, acceptance of the pope as the head of the Church from the line of St. Peter and to follow the teachings and doctrines on the Church as taught through the scriptures and tradition.
But the answer to your question as to what it means to be Catholic is much deeper than this short statement. The message of Jesus and the message of the Church is the care, life and respect of each individual from the point of conception, to the time they take thier last breath. This means that a Catholic who may go to church each week listen to the word recieve the eucharist, but then does not conduct his life during thr week with concern for his fellow inhabitants of the earth has missed the entire message.

A true understanding of being Catholic starts with ones own relationship with Christ and spirituality. The teachings of the Church helps that personal spirituality grow.
It takes more than just brief look at the Catacism to fully understand the message and the truth that lies there within.

I would suggest that you seek out a priest or deacon to whom you can ask your questions.

Peace,
FAB

 

[lhk0pd]

The Church’s official Teachings as i’ve always understood it is the state has a right to defend it’s citizenry and if deems it neccessary they have the right to use the death penalty tho under the most extreme rare circumstances. Just as a Nation has the right to protect it’s self from agressors. My thought is and it’s only my thoughts and why all the sympathy for the murderer as that seems to be the picture one gets from the radical anti death people.My gosh the Murderer has usualy dozens of yrs to repent and life which is so much more than there victim had. Will these same radicals be angry with GOD on the day of final judgment with his decision??

 

[distracted]

.

I think that to be a good Catholic one should be open-minded.

i don’t really see where open-mindedness is an absolute pre-requisite for being Catholic… although, frankly, i feel that so called cAtholics these days, if anything, are TOO open minded… meaning they think they don’t have to let into that open mind a blasted thing the RCC teaches…

with the lessons of being good-natured and that they be kind to others,

if being “good natured” means never rubbing anyone the wrong way with my Catholic beliefs… and letting socity go on, Business as usual… (hmmm. … where have we heard that one before???) then I guess i am NOT… Not a good Catholic… (according to your opinion???)

a religion should be considered as a large box in my mind. One should use their judgment and take from the box what they consider beneficial for their character and leave the rest behind.

A true Catholic (fully catechized) believes that the RCC is the true Church and therefore can be trusted in all its official teachings… It can be trusted with ALL of them or with none of them… There is no other logical choice…

 

[LongingForLight]

A true Catholic (fully catechized) believes that the RCC is the true Church and therefore can be trusted in all its official teachings… It can be trusted with ALL of them or with none of them… There is no other logical choice…

I skipped a lot of the conversation - but wanted to point out that very few Catholics are properly catechized. In this case, it seems that they are bound by the church’s teachings on conscience:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm
There’s a lot there, but here are some key parts:

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith."60

The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.61

This is just to point out that there is a gray area regarding these people - they may be in a very real state of invincible ignorance. I found this teaching very liberating - it says I can do - no, must do - what I believe is right provided I seek to inform my conscience, even if my conscience disagrees with the Church.

A person’s reaction to this teaching might well prove to be a great way for that individual to discover if they are in the group described by 1791 or 1793. What I found is that when I sought to follow my ill-formed conscience, including by forming those parts where I disagreed with the church, the last line I quoted proved out: “The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.” Over time, the Church Christ instituted has proven to be correct on matter after matter. It now has great authority over me, by virtue of having proven more correct than myself in the past so often.

But I digress; my point is that these people are still worthy of calling themselves Catholics, even if they are not well catechized. That they are following their consciences, if that is what they do, is a good thing. That many seem not to recognize the church’s call to form that conscience in the light of the teachings of the church, however, is very bad indeed. They are not required to accept the Church’s teachings over their own consciences - they are required to educate themselves fully on church teaching and seek the truth humbly, and follow where that leads them.

I think passage 1791 needs to be taught more forcefully - that people are responsible and culpable for the fruits of their lazy ignorance. That is truly the root of many problems in the church today, IMO.

 

[distracted]

i started to laugh (even though it really isn’t funny) because 1791 and 92 etc… seem to be an exat psychological profile of someone i know (someone who hates Catholics, especially yours truly… OK, so i don’t know that he hates them… just acts like it… hates the Church, doesn’ want to hear one more thing about it… etc)… Not funny because he could be on his way to Hell…

I

A person’s reaction to this teaching might well prove to be a great way for that individual to discover if they are in the group described by 1791 or 1793. What I found is that when I sought to follow my ill-formed conscience, including by forming those parts where I disagreed with the church, the last line I quoted proved out: “The more a correct conscience prevails, the more do persons and groups turn aside from blind choice and try to be guided by objective standards of moral conduct.” Over time, the Church Christ instituted has proven to be correct on matter after matter.

i could be wrong (hope i am) but i think that this (the Church proving to be right over and over) is wht my ex-friend hates about the Church… I think some just don’t want to admit tht all their lives they have been in the “wrong” church… Of course, he doesn’t go to any church at all anymore, that i know of… watches some anti-Catholic tv evangelists…

people are still worthy of calling themselves Catholics, even if they are not well catechized.

well, i agree… more or less… I used to be very uncatechized and yet i never committed a lot of sins that, well, that the Church calls sins… I was always pretty Catholic, just not… “fine-tuned” or what have you…

That they are following their consciences, if that is what they do, is a good thing. That many seem not to recognize the church’s call to form that conscience in the light of the teachings of the church, however, is very bad indeed. They are not required to accept the Church’s teachings over their own consciences - they are required to educate themselves fully on church teaching and seek the truth humbly, and follow where that leads them.

well, the Church has objective absolute truth… A lot of people don’t realize that the Church can be trusted on everything it teaches… If it is the one true Church of God, that makes sense… I guess that’s where the problem lies… some people aren’t there yet… it even took me awhile… had to do some studying… but once i realized that God logically would only establish one Church, etc… well, then things are more/less easy-going from there…

I think passage 1791 needs to be taught more forcefully - that people are responsible and culpable for the fruits of their lazy ignorance. That is truly the root of many problems in the church today, IMO.

this is wht irritated me the most about my “friend”… that he just didn’t seem to give a rip… What he did give a rip about… I’m not even sure i could figure that out… but what can i say? People are strange sometimes… I personally don’t understand someone who can be that reckless about his soul… (though he may not htink he IS being reckless)… claims he doesn’t believe osas but i think he kinda does… He lives like he believes in it…

 

[distracted]

).

And besides, even from the perspective of those seeking revenge, it’s possible that they would find it more fitting to see their hated enemy suffer miserably in prison. You see in that case, they view death as just another means for their enemy to escape.

.

i tend to think that maybe (mabye) they would be more inclined toward repentance if they were not punished repteatedly in prison…

they already know they are wrong… were wrong… they don’t need to be reminded…

they are not children… although spiritually, they are…

i wish more priests would go visit prisoners… i don’t think they make this a big priority in their ministries… Frankly, a lot of priests i’ve known just do the minimum of what is required of them.

 

[distracted]

doing what we can to help Jesus find the lost sheep and that only God has the right to give up on people; including the taking of lives, which is society’s ultimate way of giving up on and disposing of people.

Obviously, that’s just my interpretation…maybe it’s points to what I need to be doing, because we are all called to serve differently…No judgment intended.

i agree… we are so quick to throw people away… although i have to say i am more concerned about abortion being overturned than captial punishment going away…

although, now i think about it… the unborn are not damned… so maybe we should focus more on those on death row who might be damned??

it seems we don’ always care much about people going to Hell…

as stated elsewhere… i think priests should do more to visit prisoners… and not talk to them about mundane stuff but about where they are going when they die… True, i don’t know much about this kind of ministery but you would think that if a priest did this kind of work, he would talk about it once in ahile during homilies…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

i tend to think that maybe (mabye) they would be more inclined toward repentance if they were not punished repteatedly in prison…

they already know they are wrong… were wrong… they don’t need to be reminded…

they are not children… although spiritually, they are…

i wish more priests would go visit prisoners… i don’t think they make this a big priority in their ministries… Frankly, a lot of priests i’ve known just do the minimum of what is required of them.

I’m afraid that with regards to the particularly twisted ones, you’re forgetting, one, very critical detail…

They’re psycopaths.

Nuts.

Completely crazy.

You’d have to be in order to understand why they took pleasure in the things that they did.

If I had my way, I wouldn’t let anyone, not even a priest, come near a person like that unless that priest has a masters degree in Criminal Psychology and basic knowledge of self-defense.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

My dear friend

I think we should look at the Eastern Rites. they never changed so much as us from the 60’s and are doing well. There never was anything wrong with us Romans that needed changing. We have been tested in the 20th century and that century is over. I would like to see a church full of catholics proud and bursting with enthusiasm. I’m sure God would too. It usually only happens in trials and great persecution though. I would like to see us live with the spirit of the first christians. I’m sure this would please the Pope no end. He and some bishops have the right idea and we should listen to them. The only ones that can take us out of the slumber enmass are the bishops. They just have to take the church by the scruff of the neck and say - enough. Those who criticise us tell us what good you’ve done for the world. Let’s compare. our church has done so much good I doubt if even all the books in the world could hold the information. I am fiercely proud of my catholicity. I just wish I could do more for the church. We all have limitations but with God all things are possible. The only thing we all need to focus on is our personal sanctification,. Saints are needed and holiness will cure all. It’s always been a struggle because we don’t get heaven here. I think the good Lord wants to try us to see if we’re worthy of the great prize. The only thing that will change this world is Saints. We don’t always need to do great deeds eiher. Look at the Little Flower. Your crazy if you think her little way has not dramatically changed the world and yet she seemed to do nothing extraordinary whilst here.

God bless you:thumbsup:
John

 

[distracted]

I’m afraid that with regards to the particularly twisted ones, you’re forgetting, one, very critical detail…

They’re psycopaths.

Nuts.

Completely crazy.

You’d have to be in order to understand why they took pleasure in the things that they did.

If I had my way, I wouldn’t let anyone, not even a priest, come near a person like that unless that priest has a masters degree in Criminal Psychology and basic knowledge of self-defense.

i’m not saying there shouldn’t be a barrier between the two… not hardly…

i see psychopaths as self-destructive & to me this means that… well, for one, they haven’t been shown the Way of Christ… or if they were, t hey once made the decision to go away from it… but we can’t give up on them (though we must never trust them, of course)… God is not willing that any should perish…

self-destructive people leaarned how not to like themselves… (others)… I do realize that they need to WANT to change… and only then should anyone help them… and they should definitely NOT be allowed ever out in society again… (killers/serial rapists)… but we should care for their souls… give them hope that God can forgive anything… prepare them for death…

 

[CoachSTL]

catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=33587&page=2 This wonderful opinion was written by Jennifer Hartline, a Catholic Army wife and stay-at-home mother of three precious kids who writes frequently on topics of Catholic faith and daily living. She is a contributing writer for Catholic Online.

I think it is a very thought provoking and inciteful opinion that all of us should read.

She clearly states this idea:
Either live as a Catholic Christian or don’t, but stop trying to remodel the Church to make it more appealing to the world. Learn your Catholic faith, understand it correctly and LIVE IT out in public without apologizing. Stop compromising the truth. Quit trying to rewrite Church teaching to bring it “up to speed” with modern times. The Church is not out of step with society; society is out of step with the Church. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and thus His Church is timeless, ageless and always perfectly relevant. It is not the Church who needs to change her thinking; it is society that needs to CORRECT its thinking.

I agree with her description 100%. It is a mandate that all baptized Catholics should adhere to!

Thank you.

I would like to thank Jennifer for such a strong Catholic opinion. I would also like to point something out to Jennifer that maybe she could write about in another article. I am a cradle Catholic. My life in the Church has always been the best, right from the get-go. I am now in my fifties and it gets better with each passing moment.

One of the things that people say that always gnaws at my side is the fact that people, even Catholic people, refer to the Catholic Church as an institution that is part of an umbrella church. The Catholic Church IS the umbrella. When Jennifer refered to Catholics as “Catholic Christians” in her article, it almost sounds as if she categorizing the Church in addition to Episcopals, Lutherans, Methodists, and so on. The Catholic Church IS the one and only Christian Church established by Christ, and we are CATHOLIC because we believe and continue to teach all of His teachings.

My girlfriend/friend is a non practicing “Catholic” who is doing her best trying to convince me that the Catholic Church and her newest Evangelical choice of church are under the umbrella of Christ’s “church” and that our differences are only due to different points of view. And, that I must respect and accept her choice in order not be considered judgemental of her. I have stayed strong with her about my belief of the one and only Church that Christ has established. She hates it, but I also think she likes to hear it because I can tell that she misses the foundational feeling that It offers. Who, if they are truly seeking a constant deeper relationship with Christ, would not. Unless, they were totally against Christ.

The Catholic Church is the THE ONE AND ONLY Christian Church established by Christ because it is the authentic message of Christ that is passed on from generation to generation. It is a divine teaching that gathers people and makes them “church’. Christ never established a “church” He is the Church! It is 'Catholic” because the members are all of the same belief of teaching.

As hard as it is to hear if you are not “catholic” …yet. It is the truth. We are CHRISTIANS who are Catholic, not Catholic Christians.

 

[distracted]

Thank you.

I
As hard as it is to hear if you are not “catholic” …yet. It is the truth. We are CHRISTIANS who are Catholic, not Catholic Christians.

actually, the word Catholic means nothing these days…

some so called CAtholics voted for Mr. Abortion… or Ms Abortion (Pelosi)…

they are not Catholic but they are called that… by themselves & others… Oh well… that’s why this term has been rendered useless…

nowadays you have to say “truly Catholic” or “so-called Catholic” or used-to-be Catholic or wahtever…

(sigh)… all that extra typing…

 

[CoachSTL]

actually, the word Catholic means nothing these days…

some so called CAtholics voted for Mr. Abortion… or Ms Abortion (Pelosi)…

they are not Catholic but they are called that… by themselves & others… Oh well… that’s why this term has been rendered useless…

nowadays you have to say “truly Catholic” or “so-called Catholic” or used-to-be Catholic or wahtever…

(sigh)… all that extra typing…

Distracted,

Don’t despair. You must try to find solace in the fact that God sees their hearts and knows their minds completely.

Catholic DOES mean something, it means that Christ’s true message is living as we write and speak. His Church is always under seige, and He has told us this from the start. “There will be many that cry, Lord, Lord” and when they meet Christ in the next life, He will say, “I do not know you!”.

People who claim to be Christian, who have heard Christ’s full message, yet, who do not live Christ’s complete message, are not pulling any wool of God’s eyes.

Jesus gave us ONE message that was clear and not up for debate or choice. It was and is HOLY. He trained His chosen twelve to adminstrate it, and build upon it, making it an APOSTOLIC church. It is a message that is will unify us if we let it do so, this is what makes it a follower of Christ CATHOLIC.

 

[AnneMarie7]

The Catechism paragraphs 2266 and 2267 address this, specifically saying that “the traditinal teaching of the Church does not [emphasis mine]
exclude recourse to the death penalty” but with qualifications that make us truly examine our options for defending even the lives of thosewhose guilt has been “fully determined.”

 

[djeter]

I recently posted a reading selection from Fr. Robert Barron’s book, “And Now I See.” It’s interesting because it goes back through an historical review of thought and philosophy to answer the question of how we got here.

The “here” being:

"In the last thirty years (especially in Catholicism), the bodily gestures and practices of the faith, the roots of spiritual praxis — rosaries, benedictions, processions, the performance of the works of mercy, devotions to the saints, novenas, pilgrimages, kneeling for prayer, the wearing of distinctive clothes — were largely set aside and not replaced. From the height of a typically Cartesian rationalism, such things were decried as superstitious, primitive, unworthy of properly enlightened Christians.”

We tend to see many of those trappings of faith in the Muslim community more than the Christian it seems. It all springs from a Cartesian body/mind dualism that has invaded and permeated the texture of ordinary Christian life. Some of us have been tossed up on these secular shores trying to paste together a spirituality that Modernism can’t really give us.

I titled the selection “The Blandness Of Ordinary Christian Life” and you can find it under the category of “The State of the Catholic Church.”

If you are unfamiliar with Fr. Barron, shame on you! I have numerous other meditations of his on my site. Go buy his books, they’re wonderful.

God bless

DJ