Are you saved if you are nontrinitarian?

[Lek]

If we read scripture, it is apparent that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. It is also written that there is only one God. Past that, I don’t see any other clear doctrine concerning the trinity. Still, the bible doesn’t say anywhere that we must be aware of the doctrine of the trinity to be saved. There are people who follow Jesus as their savior who are uneducated enough in scripture that they haven’t grasped the idea of the trinity. If a person is aware of the truth and then rejects it, then he is refusing to accept God as he truly is and I would assume that he is not saved, although only God knows.

 

[SteveVH]

If we read scripture, it is apparent that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. It is also written that there is only one God. Past that, I don’t see any other clear doctrine concerning the trinity. Still, the bible doesn’t say anywhere that we must be aware of the doctrine of the trinity to be saved.

Nor does it say we should have “altar calls” or repeat the sinners prayer, or ask Jesus to come into our heart, even rely on the Bible for our faith. As has already been stated, the dogma of the Trinity is all important to a Christian. One cannot understand the Christian faith without accepting this dogma. One cannot understand what Christ accomplished.

There are people who follow Jesus as their savior who are uneducated enough in scripture that they haven’t grasped the idea of the trinity.

Which is why Christ left us with a Church and not a book. We must be taught. The truth must be handed on, not gleaned from the pages of a written text which was never meant to be the basis for our faith, only a reflection of it.

If a person is aware of the truth and then rejects it, then he is refusing to accept God as he truly is and I would assume that he is not saved, although only God knows.

Yes. And those that belong to and are taught by the Church are aware of this truth, even if it cannot be extracted easily from the pages of Scripture. Even people who were and are illiterate and cannot read Scripture have been taught this important dogma through the centuries.

God bless.

Steve

 

[Lek]

Nor does it say we should have “altar calls” or repeat the sinners prayer, or ask Jesus to come into our heart, even rely on the Bible for our faith. As has already been stated, the dogma of the Trinity is all important to a Christian. One cannot understand the Christian faith without accepting this dogma. One cannot understand what Christ accomplished.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hyrum,

Reading your post, I am wondering if you are a Mormon as they are studying Eastern Orthodox Christianity…but their studies are seeking justification and place within mainline Christianity while holding on to the belief of progression, the eventual deification of self. This is opposite of Christianity, a greater error than not accepting the Holy Trinity.

Eve was offered the forbidden fruit to be like the gods, not to seek wisdom, as wisdom does not come in disobedience to God Himself Who prior walked with them as Friend.

St. Athanasius resolved the problem a very long time ago, called ‘Arianism’, following the end of Christian persecution, a priest promoting the idea that Christ is separate from God. The Nicene Creed was then recited at Mass instead of the Apostles Creed (which is still done at daily Mass) in the mid 300’s where we all profess the Lord Jesus is One with the Father of the same substance.

Jesus has His own will but submits His will to the Heavenly Father. Jesus is the Incarnated Person of God through which the universe was made. So God in essence always operates in one will.

St. Athanasius stated that if this heresy were not corrected, people could fall back into paganism and polytheism.

Judeo Christianity believes in One God.

 

[KjetilK]

We rely on the old testament because Jesus accepted it as inspired, as did the Jews to it was first given.

Which of the numerous canons of the Old Testament are we to follow? No ‘official canon’ existed at the time of Jesus. Feel free to contradict me by pointing to one.

What doctrines from old testament times does the catholic church teach that are not contained in the bible?

But Steve is making a principled point, not a material one. The Bible, the canon of Scripture, would not exist if it weren’t for the Church.

I’ Lutheran, btw.

 

[Brandall]

This time, last year, I was in RCIA and this year I am helping in RCIA. One of the arguments against sola scriptura, that we’ve been taught, is there was no official bible canon for 300+ years and the Church was still able to preach the gospel without it. People became Christians without a defined bible canon for a period that was several generations.

For about that same amount of time, there was no definitive teaching on the trinity. Yes, there are signs of it showing up early in the second century but how much of this did the early Christians understand? There was no printing press and if there had been, very few could read. Any information about Christianity they had was what was told. Their overall understanding of Christianity could not have been, for the average Christian, nearly as developed as ours. Yet, they were Christians. What percent of these early Christians understood the concept of the trinity? I’m betting it would have been a very low number. If they didn’t understand the Trinity, were they truly Christians? This is one of the teachings that the Church “developed” over time. Was there no salvation prior to the development of the doctrine?

To filioque, or not to filioque, that is the question. Millions of Christians have loved God and Jesus and probably just had the simplest of understanding of what they believed. Three persons, what proceeds from what, doctrines of Mary, Papal infallibility, Communion of Saints, etc. They lived, became Christians, died and went to heaven without understanding a lot of different doctrine or dogma. Or maybe they didn’t go to heaven.

For those that think it easy to discern the Trinity from the Bible, historically and today, there are too many groups that disagree with the doctrine for it to be obvious. In the early church, there was disagreement within the church regarding the teaching. It seems easy to understand to me but maybe that’s because I’ve always belonged to a Trinitarian Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

People back then did not fully understand what was all happening at Mass…and the Apostles themselves, and Christ did not pass out books of Scripture. He did quote Scripture, devout Jew that He was, but instead of book form – which is so prone to projection, reading your own take…Christ chose 12 apostles who taught them by Word and Ministry, His witnesses.

You can read something. But you can also discuss the same with a person and even with facial expressions alone, can see when there is a misunderstanding or confusion.

Learning a fact orally is different than reading it, especially when it is about the meaning of life.

 

[Indifferently]

The logical conclusion of all heresy is apostasy.

But not all heretics are apostate.

This applies to the question here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Life eternal is to know God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The trinitarian doctrine is the central mystery and doctrine of Orthodox Christianity.

What do you mean my central mystery?

The central doctrine of Catholicism is this: Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again.

The nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ was decided by vote done by men.

No it wasn’t.

It’s a dogma essent ail for salvation.

Jesus Christ is indeed essential for salvation. Understanding Who He is, is essential to understanding salvation.

I believe the scriptures make a far stronger indication that Jesus and the Father are seperate beings. Stephen has his vision of heaven, and says that He saw God the Father and The Lord Jesus sitting at his right hand side. Who does he refer to as God in this vision?

I don’t believe scriptural interpretation is up to you. The Catholic Church, that I accept as the authoritative interpreter of scripture, explains it thus:

Henceforth Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father: “By ‘the Father’s right hand’ we understand the glory and honor of divinity, where he who exists as Son of God before all ages, indeed as God, of one being with the Father, is seated bodily after he became incarnate and his flesh was glorified.” (CCC 663)

Some points as well- (1) Orthodox Christianity came to accept that the Father was the Creator, rather than having created through Jesus Christ.

I don’t know where you got this idea, but it is incorrect.

(2) It came to accept that the Father was the God or LORD of the Old Testament. But the Bible shows that this personage was actually Christ (I Cor. 10:1-4).

We understand God as, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God is present in the Old and New Testament.

(3) Orthodox Christianity believed that many people had spoken with the Father (in the Old Testament). Yet Jesus declared that no man had seen or heard the Father (John 5:37). And, because the Father was unknown to the world, one purpose of Christ’s coming was to reveal Him (John 1:18, Luke 10:22).

Maybe you should not start your points by telling us what we believe, because, I don’t see that we are in disagreement here. I recommend that your read Justin Martyr’s “Dialogue with Trypho”.

(4) It came to believe that the Father and Son are “one” by some mystical way. However, the Bible says the Father and Son are “one” in the same sense that all members of the Church are “one” in unity and purpose (John 17:11).

You have one prooftext, and this alone could be, and has been, its own thread.

(5) Orthodox Christianity accepted the premise of Judaism concerning monotheism—that God was one being. Yet two distinct Beings are identified in the beginning of John’s gospel (1:1-2). Likewise, Genesis 1:26 records a conversation between these two God Beings. Notice: “And God said, Let Us make man in Our image…” The word “God” derives from the Hebrew Elohim (a plural term—actually a collective noun—similar to kingdom, family or church).

Two distinct persons are identified. Yet, God is one being. The premise isn’t Jewish, it is scriptural. God brought Israel out of polytheism to an understanding that is clearly expressed post-exilic, that God is ONE. Do you not believe that God led Israel to a correct understanding of Himself?

Rather than the God Family being a closed trinity, as accepted by Christianity, this Family will expand through the many begotten sons of God yet to be born into it (John 1:11-12; Rom. 8:14, 19; I John 3:1-
Theosis, partaking in the divine nature of God.

Also, another subject that can be its own long thread, and has been several times.

 

[Indifferently]

God being both one and three is not logically impossible.

The Bible teaches that God is one in essence or substance, and that God is three in subsistence or personhood. Trinitarianism would only be illogical if it affirmed at the same time that God was one in substance and three in substance, or one in person and three in person. It does neither. It is a logical position.

 

[KathleenGee]

Indifferently,

It has been said it is not heretical either for people to want women ordained as Catholic priests.

Apostasy is coming to encounter the Lord, realizing the message, participating, and then later leaving to reject Him.

There has been no history of apostasy in the Catholic Church, but consistency of faith and belief.

 

[Indifferently]

Indifferently,

It has been said it is not heretical either for people to want women ordained as Catholic priests.

Apostasy is coming to encounter the Lord, realizing the message, participating, and then later leaving to reject Him.

There has been no history of apostasy in the Catholic Church, but consistency of faith and belief.

I’m not terribly sure I follow you. I said heresy leads to apostasy. That was in reference to the subject of this thread. Your post has nothing to do with anything I have said.

Whether or not the Church of Rome is apostate is not the subject of this thread, nor the subject of my posts in this thread.

 

[Marie5890]

For what it’s worth, Hyrum has not been back since he posted his question. Unless, of course, he has been just lurking but not signed in.

But since there has been no response from him, I am left to wonder how important of a question this was for him?

 

[KathleenGee]

There are many heretics out there, there are many Catholics out there who hold heretical ideas…but still have not turned their back on Christ.

You have to look at the background of the OP.

You can have God and Holy Spirit…but not Christ…or a different christ…

www.deseretnews.com/article/700168175/Joseph-Smiths-restoration-of-theosis-was-miracle-not-scandal.html

The given link is where Hyrum could possibly be heading.

Marie is waiting and so am I.