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fhansen
Guest
The CC teaches that no one can know with 100% certainty except by private revelation-very rare.
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Philthy
Guest
Hi Tim -
Nice post! I’d amend the bolded above to say, " I HOPE TO BE saved…" it’ll save you some back tracking…
Blessings!
T
tvknight415
Guest
According to what most people mean when they ask if I am saved, the answer is yes - I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and put my trust in him. I have been born again by water and the holy spirit as he instructed us. I have about the most personal relationship with Jesus that it is possible to have - I receive his body and blood at least weekly, to renew his covenant with me, since we must eat his flesh and drink his blood or we have no life within us. However, I will not subscribe to a false sense of assurance, because I must perservere to the end to be saved.
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ, Getysbg
CONDITIONS TO BE CATHOLIC
The condition to be a real (not only an imitation) Catholic is to be a member of the invisible Church/Body of Christ.
The condition to be a member of the invisible Church/Body of Christ
is HAVE BEEN SAVED/BEING IN THE STATE OF GRACE.
CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
The other parts of the conditions:
Certain conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible.
- The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
- It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
- It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
- Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
a. It MUST be OPTIONAL, because if it is COMPULSORY, our works CANNOT meet the above standard, BECAUSE they cannot be done freely. – This standard is tailor made for those whom Christ has been set free from the law of slavery. Meaning: We can work freely for the glory of God, not because we NEED to, but because we WANT to. Work is NOT compulsory for salvation. – Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15.
Those who believe they have to work for their salvation in one way or another, – their works could NEVER be able to meet the above conditions.
b. We are deceived and mislead (Matt.24:24), if we do our works to GET our salvation, or COMPLETE our salvation, or KEEP our salvation. This is from FREEDOM, back to SLAVERY AGAIN.
God does not reward SLAVE LABOR. If our works are not done by free choice, they count for nothing, and even DESTROY our faith as well. – Gal.1:6-9.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are justified by our works.
Our doctrine of salvation is: WE HAVE BEEN SAVED BY GRACE ALONE, SOLELY ON ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST.
With our works, we couldn’t add to our salvation even one iota.
JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.
4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.
4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this renewal in faith, hope, love is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes nothing to justification.
4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.
I have noticed many posters quoted Phil.2:12 “… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” In context it is to work out our SANCTIFICATION. For example: Phil.2:12-15; Eph.4:22-24; 1 Thess.4:1, 3; Hebr.2:11; Hebr.10:14. Our works of sanctification start after we have been saved.
This work strictly the FRUIT of our salvation, NOT the cause of it, and if we do it NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO, but FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY, it will count as supernatural merit and God rewards it.
The reward cannot be reward OF Heaven, but reward IN Heaven.
Our salvation is God’s FREE GIFT for us, we are CANNOT gain God’s FREE GIFT with our work, we can only receive it by FAITH.
With love in Christ,
LH
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fhansen
Guest
We can forfeit the kingdom by refusing to do Gods work-by resisting grace, by turning back away from God. Consider the parable of the talents or Matt 25:31-46.
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Victorina
Guest
I saw a thread about why Protestants hold back, after investigating Catholicism, and although I am almost there (!) this is one of the stumbling blocks I have. I don’t understand that distinction!
Vicky
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ, Fhansen
LET’S THINK LOGICALLY.
ACCORDING TO DOCTRINAL FACTS:
- Our official doctrine of salvation is: “SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE, SOLELY ON ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST.”
- Our salvation is GOD’S FREE GIFT.
- CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Certain conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible.
a. The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
b. It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
c. It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
d. Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
- James 2:14, 24 states: Without work faith can’t save.
In our Church there are two different interpretations IN CIRCULATION on the above statement. One is Church doctrine, the other is not!
If someone tries to contradict it, then he is trying to contradict the Word of God in Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Rom.6:23; Gal.1:6-9.
b. The interpretation of James. (2:14, 24)
YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE By Peter Kreeft
(If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely – read Catholic authors today.)
“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives. The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J.
Quote from page 291: “The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2:21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith, (Rom.4:3), is explained by looking at the context. Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God, while James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works. FAITH JUSTIFIES US BEFORE GOD; WORKS JUSTIFY US BEFORE OUR NEIGHBORS.” End quote. Emphasis mine.
Paul and James may use the same words, but they are speaking about two different subjects.
If we mix together Paul’s teachings with James teachings,
at the judgment, God will reject our works, because NOT DONE BY FREELY and by OUR CHOICE and FOR HIS GLORY, but done as SLAVE LABOR TO PURCHASE our salvation. This is not only the DESTRUCTION of our works, but the DESTRUCTION of our faith as well. – The results described in Gal.1:6-9.
CONCLUSION
If point a. is correct: Then the WHOLE human race is doomed to hell, because our work is compulsory for salvation. At the judgment, God will reject our works because, NOT DONE BY OUR CHOICE and FOR HIS GLORY but done as SLAVE LABOR TO PURCHASE our salvation.
The TRUTH IS, James 2:14, 24 has nothing to do with our FREE GIFT of salvation. Work is NOT compulsory for our salvation.
The parable of the talents or Matt 25:31-46.
In the case of the sheep, Christ simply speaking about the FRUITS of their salvation. They CANNOT be saved by works, because there is only one rule of salvation for everyone, and in our Catholic Church that rule of salvation is: “SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE (sola gratia), SOLELY ON THE ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST (solo Christo). We OBTAIN our salvation by FAITH ALONE (sola fide formata).
THE FRUITS OF SALVATION, CAN NEVER BE THE CAUSE OF SALVATION.
In the case of the goats, Christ is speaking the FRUITS of the REJECTION of their salvation.
- Rom.4:5-6 and 1 Cor.3:11-15 states, OUR WORK IS NOT A CONDITION OF OUR SALVATION. With other words, “But to him who does NOT WORK but BELIEVES on Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is accounted for RIGHTEOUSNESS.” – Rom.4:5
- According to our judgment of 1 Cor.3:11-15 OUR WORK IS NOT CONDITION OF OUR SALVATION. Jerusalem Bible Rom.4:5 “But when a man has NOTHING TO SHOW except FAITH in the One who JUSTIFIES sinners, then his FAITH is considered as JUSTIFYING him.”
- JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. (It is on the internet, every Catholic should read and study it.)
Code:
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)
This “formed faith” above is GOD’S FREE GIFT for EVERY CHRISTIAN, this gift of faith also INCLUDES the BAPTISM OF DESIRE, and the desire to go to Heaven.
This formed faith produces INSTANT SALVATION without water baptism and without sacraments, [CCC 1249]. Our official doctrine of salvation: “Salvation by grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ, or (formed) faith alone.” Period. Anything added to faith contradicts CCC1249) and takes away God’s glory!
God’s free gift of faith is formed faith, at that moment when God gives it to a person, THAT IS THE MOMENT, WHEN THAT PERSON IS SAVED. From that point on, every good work of a saved is the fruit of salvation NOT the cause of it.
With love in Christ,
LH
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oneofmany
Guest
One apologist said we are to say, “Yes, when I was baptized as a baby.”
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Lion_Heart
Guest
Greetings in Christ, Fhansen
LET’S THINK LOGICALLY.
ACCORDING TO DOCTRINAL FACTS:
- Our official doctrine of salvation is: “SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE, SOLELY ON ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST.”
- Our salvation is GOD’S FREE GIFT.
- CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS COUNT FOR ANYTHING
The Catholic Church clearly teaches that one MUST be in a STATE OF GRACE, MUST be a member of the BODY OF CHRIST, MUST be already SAVED, MUST be already JUSTIFIED before we do a SINGLE WORK that counts for anything.
Certain conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL merit possible.
a. The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.
b. It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.
c. It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.
d. Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).
- James 2:14, 24 states: Without work faith can’t save.
In our Church there are two different interpretations IN CIRCULATION on the above statement. One is Church doctrine, the other is not!
If someone tries to contradict it, then he is trying to contradict the Word of God in Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Rom.6:23; Gal.1:6-9.
b. The interpretation of James. (2:14, 24)
YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE By Peter Kreeft
(If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely – read Catholic authors today.)
“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives. The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J.
Quote from page 291: “The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2:21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith, (Rom.4:3), is explained by looking at the context. Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God, while James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works. FAITH JUSTIFIES US BEFORE GOD; WORKS JUSTIFY US BEFORE OUR NEIGHBORS.” End quote. Emphasis mine.
Paul and James may use the same words, but they are speaking about two different subjects.
If we mix together Paul’s teachings with James teachings,
at the judgment, God will reject our works, because NOT DONE BY FREELY and by OUR CHOICE and FOR HIS GLORY, but done as SLAVE LABOR TO PURCHASE our salvation. This is not only the DESTRUCTION of our works, but the DESTRUCTION of our faith as well. – The results described in Gal.1:6-9.
CONCLUSION
If point a. is correct: Then the WHOLE human race is doomed to hell, because our work is compulsory for salvation. At the judgment, God will reject our works because, NOT DONE BY OUR CHOICE and FOR HIS GLORY but done as SLAVE LABOR TO PURCHASE our salvation.
The TRUTH IS, James 2:14, 24 has nothing to do with our FREE GIFT of salvation. Work is NOT compulsory for our salvation.
The parable of the talents or Matt 25:31-46.
In the case of the sheep, Christ simply speaking about the FRUITS of their salvation. They CANNOT be saved by works, because there is only one rule of salvation for everyone, and in our Catholic Church that rule of salvation is: “SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE (sola gratia), SOLELY ON THE ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST (solo Christo). We OBTAIN our salvation by FAITH ALONE (sola fide formata).
THE FRUITS OF SALVATION, CAN NEVER BE THE CAUSE OF SALVATION.
In the case of the goats, Christ is speaking the FRUITS of the REJECTION of their salvation.
- Rom.4:5-6 and 1 Cor.3:11-15 states, OUR WORK IS NOT A CONDITION OF OUR SALVATION. With other words, “But to him who does NOT WORK but BELIEVES on Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is accounted for RIGHTEOUSNESS.” – Rom.4:5
- According to our judgment of 1 Cor.3:11-15 OUR WORK IS NOT CONDITION OF OUR SALVATION. Jerusalem Bible Rom.4:5 “But when a man has NOTHING TO SHOW except FAITH in the One who JUSTIFIES sinners, then his FAITH is considered as JUSTIFYING him.”
- JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE by Jimmy Akin
Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. (It is on the internet, every Catholic should read and study it.)
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:
a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)
b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)
c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)
d. BAPTISM OF DESIRE.
This formed faith produces INSTANT SALVATION without water baptism and without sacraments, [CCC 1249]. Our official doctrine of salvation: “Salvation by grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ, or (formed) faith alone.” Period. Anything added to faith contradicts CCC1249) and takes away God’s glory!
God’s free gift of faith is formed faith, at that moment when God gives it to a person, THAT IS THE MOMENT, WHEN THAT PERSON IS SAVED. From that point on, every good work of a saved is the fruit of salvation NOT the cause of it.
With love in Christ,
LH
L
Lion_Heart
Guest
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