Are you sure you want to be an organ donor?

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I just got my temporary driver’s license in Ocober, and I chose to put that I’m an organ donor on my card. This is just my view, but if I was to die in a car accident, and if my organs could be used to save someone’s life, I would rather that happen then keep my organs (if they were still usable, of course).
 
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Lorarose:
Thank you pumpkin! And it’s good to know there are nurses out there like you to stand by grief stricken families in their greatest time of need. It cannot be an easy job.
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I am just lucky to work with many nurses like that. I just always work with patients thinking what if this was my family, my mom, my grandmother, my dad…You know sometimes it is not easy, but more often than not it is humbling and a beautiful thing to care for patients and their families. I would not want to be anything other than a nurse.
P
 
The final test was the “gasp test” - they turn off the ventilator for a few minutes to see if the patient attempts to breathe.
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This seems reasonable to me. If you unhook a patient from the machines and he does not breathe, the patient is dying.
If one is brain dead, one is dead. . . . .Brain dead people who are kept alive on machines all die in a matter of days, because their bodies can not handle salt balance or autonomic functions without functional brains.
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I do agree with at least the second part of this. But note the ambiguity of the language. The patient is “dead” but must be “kept alive” in order for organ donation to take place.

The equating of death with brain death seems to me to be close to equating a person with his brain, which is not what the Church has always believed. I am also not entirely confident that medical science knows everything about what goes on in the brain. I’m not in the medical field, but I’ve been told that EEG’s only measure surface brain activity, not anything that goes on at the deeper layers.

I’m not trying to eliminate organ donation. But it does worry me that now one can be “declared” dead even while one’s body is still alive. Has the soul departed or not?
 
In our case Jim - it was our “feeling” that yes - our daughter’s soul had departed.
Now…there’s no way I could be absolutely certain of that.
There was a point when we felt she was “in there” and was still with us. And by the end - there was nothing there. Just the whirring of the machines.

As far as the Church goes…we did make sure we received counseling from several priests on this - and we were given assurance by all of them.
The cardiologist I already mentioned had researched this extensively…as he is a good catholic man with a strong desire to live by Church teaching.

Hopefully it will not be something you will ever have to deal with.
I think it is one of those things that you manage to figure out with God’s help.
 
It sounds to me like you handled it just right, Lorarose. It can never be an easy decision, and it is always individualized to the circumstances. It sounds like you had a very good and caring medical team. You’re right, I do hope I never have to deal with it. My brother has custody of both my living will and my POA for health care; but I told him that there is only so much that can be pre-determined. In the end, it is up to the individual to decide.
 
Since your brother knows your desire to abide by Church teaching I’m sure he would seek counsel from the Church if such an unfortunate thing were to happen.
 
If you have a problem being a living organ donor then think about being a dead donor. Mr friend works for an eye bank and they harvest the cornea after you have died. He said there are tons of things from bones to skin grafts that can be taken from you after your dead. This might be an option for those who want to help someone but don’t want the doctors to wrongly declare them dead and steal their organs. After all no one knows what actually happens before someone’s organ’s are taken because no one has lived to tell us.

GOD BLESS
Beckers
 
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beckers:
If you have a problem being a living organ donor then think about being a dead donor. Mr friend works for an eye bank and they harvest the cornea after you have died. He said there are tons of things from bones to skin grafts that can be taken from you after your dead. This might be an option for those who want to help someone but don’t want the doctors to wrongly declare them dead and steal their organs. After all no one knows what actually happens before someone’s organ’s are taken because no one has lived to tell us.
GOD BLESS
Beckers
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This is, of course, true. In addition, there are organs such as one kidney (assuming you still have two) which can licitly be donated while one is still alive.

But, one clarification. With respect to organs which are necessary for one’s continued life, the Church approves donation of these organs “after death.” In those cases, the definition of what constitutes death becomes paramount. The Church has never approved the donation of unique and vital organs “before” death.
 
well…brain death is declared before anyone donates vital organs.

Are you distrustful of the diagnosis of brain death?
Can you find any cases where a person was diagnosed with brain death - but they recovered?
 
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Lorarose:
well…brain death is declared before anyone donates vital organs.

Are you distrustful of the diagnosis of brain death?
Can you find any cases where a person was diagnosed with brain death - but they recovered?
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We had an interesting inservice yesterday by organ retrieval folks at the hospital where I work as an RN. They explained the tests they do to verify brain death. The entire brain must be dead, including the brain stem. They do a specific test, removing the patient from the vent (ventilator), first drawing blood gases, then drawing them again to test for respiratory drive. The brain stem is what controls the lower functions such as respiratory drive, temperature, etc. They also test reaction to stimulation of facial cranial nerves. There were other tests too. So, brain death has to be verified through clinically objective means.

My concern about the organ retrieval industry is 1) the push by the medical community to allow retrieval on patients in ‘persistant vegetative states’ 2) The potential for grave abuses in the retrieval of organs from the poor and powerless.

Read these disturbing articles on BBC…

Help to prevent woman selling eye

Call to legalise live organ trade
 
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JimG:
This seems reasonable to me. If you unhook a patient from the machines and he does not breathe, the patient is dying.
I do agree with at least the second part of this. But note the ambiguity of the language. ** The patient is “dead” but must be “kept alive” in order for organ donation to take place. **
The equating of death with brain death seems to me to be close to equating a person with his brain, which is not what the Church has always believed. I am also not entirely confident that medical science knows everything about what goes on in the brain. I’m not in the medical field, but I’ve been told that EEG’s only measure surface brain activity, not anything that goes on at the deeper layers.

I’m not trying to eliminate organ donation. But it does worry me that now one can be “declared” dead even while one’s body is still alive. Has the soul departed or not?
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This sounds very much like a question a priest I know brought up at a meeting of pro-lifers. It is a very difficult thing to discern, for sure. Would this be included in the belief of the sanctity of life from “conception to natural death”? Would it be immoral to withhold your organs from someone who would die without them? I have no idea. I would like to see the opinion of someone much wiser than myself. Did JPII ever do any writing on this subject?
 
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WhiteDove:
I doubt if anyone needing an organ would be elibible to donate one. Maybe corneas, that’s all…
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I need a heart and there’s nothing wrong with the rest of my organs. This issue has come up on the forum and I have very strong feelings on the matter. It’s easy to say you won’t donate if you don’t know someone who needs one.
 
This sounds very much like a question a priest I know brought up at a meeting of pro-lifers. It is a very difficult thing to discern, for sure. Would this be included in the belief of the sanctity of life from “conception to natural death”? Would it be immoral to withhold your organs from someone who would die without them? I have no idea. I would like to see the opinion of someone much wiser than myself. Did JPII ever do any writing on this subject?
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Whitedove …certainly there are some really crazy things going on in the world…but I don’t see how those articles apply to the issue of donating organs upon diagnosis of brain death.
I’m worried that in the wake of the Terri Schiavo story (and no - I DON’T think pvs patients should be touched!) that people are equating pvs with brain death and making them afraid to become donors.
The two conditions are very different.
This sounds very much like a question a priest I know brought up at a meeting of pro-lifers. It is a very difficult thing to discern, for sure. Would this be included in the belief of the sanctity of life from “conception to natural death”? Would it be immoral to withhold your organs from someone who would die without them? I have no idea. I would like to see the opinion of someone much wiser than myself. Did JPII ever do any writing on this subject?
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Let me put it this way…
We were told by our doctors that once brain death was declared (state of NY) we had no legal right to prevent them from removing life support.
They had declared death, they had signed the death certificate - and they had the authority to remove her from the ventilator whether we wanted them to or not.

Let’s say for argument’s sake we had kept her on life support - in brain death the organs shut down anyway.

So it came down to 2 choices…remove her from life support - or proceed to the donation process.
She was already “dead”
Does this make sense?

I’m just trying to give as accurate picture as I can of someone who has “been there”
I think people might get scared off from this with misinformation, and it would be a shame for those whose lives could be saved.

It is tough at the time to know saving a life required the death of your loved one. But as time goes on it becomes a comfort.
 
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Lorarose:
They had declared death, they had signed the death certificate - and they had the authority to remove her from the ventilator whether we wanted them to or not.
. . .
So it came down to 2 choices…remove her from life support - or proceed to the donation process.
She was already “dead”
Does this make sense?
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Yes, I think it does make sense. In this case death had already been declared, and I trust the medical team’s conclusion based on what you have said, and most of all I trust your own instincts in the matter.

I’m just not sure whether the same trust is warranted with every physician, or in every medical center, in every country, or regardless of the patient’s circumstances.
 
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JimG:
Yes, I think it does make sense. In this case death had already been declared, and I trust the medical team’s conclusion based on what you have said, and most of all I trust your own instincts in the matter.

I’m just not sure whether the same trust is warranted with every physician, or in every medical center, in every country, or regardless of the patient’s circumstances.
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Disregarding a few rogue doctors hither and thither, death is ALWAYS declared. It’s a requirement in the US. Then like Lorarose said, it’s either donate, or they unhook anyways. Still it’s a very personal chioce, and one not to be taken lightly.
 
I’m just not sure whether the same trust is warranted with every physician, or in every medical center, in every country, or regardless of the patient’s circumstances.
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I’m not sure if the standards are nationwide or statewide.
This decision does not come down to one physician however.

I would suggest to anyone uncomfortable with trusting the doctors that they require the team of doctors to continually keep them fully informed.
Make them lay out their case to you. Ask them what the standards are - then make them show you how this person meets that standard.
You have the right to find a doctor you do trust to confer with the team and give you his opinion of how the matter is being handled.
 
Lorarose, I certainly don’t want you to think that I thought your decision was wrong or that I was passing judgement in any way. You made an incredibly unselfish decision and are incredibly brave and gracious. The priest I mentioned actually brought up this question over a year ago (before the Terri Schaivo thing blew up). I think the main problem is when you have people who don’t follow the “rules”. You do hear a lot of horror stories, and the details can be sketchy. There has always been talk of an “underground” or “black market” for organs. And the possibility that someone could falsely claim that a person is “brain dead” for the sole purpose of harvesting their organs. I guess this priest’s main question (and it was only a question posed for consideration) was the idea that they had to keep someone “alive” in order to take their organs, which would obviously leave them “dead”. Guess it’s just a language thing. Of course, if a person is already legally dead by the consensus of several doctors, this would not be a question. Then, their body is only functioning by the will of a machine, and not the will of God. This, I completely understand. Again, I appreciate your knowledge of this topic, and offer my condolences for your loss.
 
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beckers:
If you have a problem being a living organ donor then think about being a dead donor. Mr friend works for an eye bank and they harvest the cornea after you have died. He said there are tons of things from bones to skin grafts that can be taken from you after your dead. This might be an option for those who want to help someone but don’t want the doctors to wrongly declare them dead and steal their organs. After all no one knows what actually happens before someone’s organ’s are taken because no one has lived to tell us.

GOD BLESS
Beckers
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I would like to be a “dead donor”. How do I make that distinction legally? Would that go on my driver’s license?
 
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coralewisjr:
I would like to be a “dead donor”. How do I make that distinction legally? Would that go on my driver’s license?
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Tell everyone in your family. What you put on your license won’t really matter much except in very few circumstances.
 
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