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Phemie
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I was thinking along the same line. At 24 I was dressing in a kid’s size 12. At 6, when I made my first Confession and Communion I probably looked to be 4 or 5.
Are young children (4/5 yrs old) permitted to partake of Sacrament of Reconciliation?
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puzzleannie
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no Catholic can be deprived of the sacraments who is properly disposed and asks for them, and has been prepared for them to understand enough about their actions and effects to appreciate and desire them. The age for first communion is the age of discretion or catechetical age, generally around age 7, preceded by sacramental confession. The bishop sets the actual age for his diocese, and the pastor of the parish has responsibility for assuring children are ready, prepared and properly disposed. If he (no one else has this authority) decides to delay the sacrament beyond the usual age he must state why, in writing.
The age of discretion is the age when they do understand right from wrong and the difference between sin and accident, and are able to feel and express contrition. Some children may indeed be at that point at 5 or 6, some not until later. That is for the pastor to decide. If a child expresses a desire for confession before the time set for her “class” (a sincere desire, not just for the novelty) the parents should help her prepare and give her that opportunity. They are not required to wait for the “class” date and can bring her at any regular confession time. But do prepare her.
In the same way for a child who sincerely expresses a desire to receive Jesus in communion, and some younger children can do this and understand the nature of what they are receiving, schedule an appointment with the pastor to share your perception. He will most likely consult her school or CCD teacher and take their recommendation into account, but it is his decision, not the DRE or school’s, if she is ready.
Since someone is surely going to bring up Eastern Rite practice, wherein children are fully initiated at Baptism, and prepared for first confession and receive catechesis on doctrine sometime afterward, it is worth noting that you may see very young children receiving communion even in a Latin rite church for this reason, and yes, they may be confessing younger than 7. Also some of our 2nd graders are very petite and I do have to assure the pastor they are of age.
The age of discretion is the age when they do understand right from wrong and the difference between sin and accident, and are able to feel and express contrition. Some children may indeed be at that point at 5 or 6, some not until later. That is for the pastor to decide. If a child expresses a desire for confession before the time set for her “class” (a sincere desire, not just for the novelty) the parents should help her prepare and give her that opportunity. They are not required to wait for the “class” date and can bring her at any regular confession time. But do prepare her.
In the same way for a child who sincerely expresses a desire to receive Jesus in communion, and some younger children can do this and understand the nature of what they are receiving, schedule an appointment with the pastor to share your perception. He will most likely consult her school or CCD teacher and take their recommendation into account, but it is his decision, not the DRE or school’s, if she is ready.
Since someone is surely going to bring up Eastern Rite practice, wherein children are fully initiated at Baptism, and prepared for first confession and receive catechesis on doctrine sometime afterward, it is worth noting that you may see very young children receiving communion even in a Latin rite church for this reason, and yes, they may be confessing younger than 7. Also some of our 2nd graders are very petite and I do have to assure the pastor they are of age.
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puzzleannie
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it is actually the parents’ responsibility to prepare the child for sacraments, the CCD or school class assists but does not replace the parents in their essential role. RCIA is a different order altogether, for unbaptized children over age 7, so does not arise in this context.
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FrDavid96
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Genreally speaking, 4 or 5 year olds cannot receive First Communion in normal circumstances. A child must first reach the age of reason before first Communion. Unless the child is a prodigy, no 4 year old has yet reached that age of reason.I’m glad I posted this, because I really didn’t know that kids as young as 4 or 5 could receive communion. I was going to ask as my next question, Lily…about baptism…you beat me to it. lol I started thinking that maybe if one is baptized a Catholic, and is younger than the typical age for receiving first holy communion, that it would be acceptable, if they were aware of what was going on. Interesting! Thank you for this info.
In danger of death, a child who has not reached the age of reason may be admitted to Communion if the child is able to distinguish between the Eucharist and ordinary food–this is not the same thing as the age of reason. By no means is that the normal situation.
I am concerned that you’re getting some misleading information here.
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FrDavid96
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Walking Home:
You are taking the words entirely out of context.
This is the context:
First Communion was being done anywhere from age 10 to age 20 and even beyond. The Church was adressing that problem. That is the context.
You are taking Pius Xs words in reference to a fourteen year old and trying to apply those same words to a four year old. It just doesn’t work.
For confession, a child must know right from wrong AND have reached the age of reason. You misunderstand when you think that the two requirements are one and the same. Knowing right from wrong comes first in human development. Having the capacity to reason is a later development. A seven year old needs to have a seven year old’s understanding of confession (sin, repentance, forgiveness, etc. etc.), not an adult’s understanding. Pius X was addressing the abuse that a person was expected to have that adult understanding and he was saying, essentially: No, the age of reason is old enough for confession/communion, do not delay this until there is an adult capacity for reason.
You keep quoting the document that says “age of reason” yet you consistently ignore the very words you keep quoting. Knowing right from wrong is not the same thing as having attained the use of reason (even “some reason”). They are related, yet they are very different stages in human development.
The Church was very careful NOT to say merely knowing the difference between right and wrong, but carefully qualifying that by adding that the child must have reached the age of reason as well.
Read the quotes that you keep posting.
The readers here are getting some very misleading information from your misinterpretation of the decree.
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Walking_Home
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FrDavid --you can continue to say I am taking the quotes out of context --but the document and the meaning speak for themselves. I am not saying confession/communion is to be administer before the child has reached use of reason — but that the use of reason can happen before a child reaches the age of 7. As per St. Pius X --knowing the difference between right and wrong --indicates the child’s use of reason. Knowing the difference between right and wrong --flows from the child ability to reason. He did not place the restriction on the child --of having to attain a mature use of reason
Now the problem its seems is in placing the qualifications of mature use of reason on a child—which is what you have done above. Pope St. Pius X did not place this type of qualification on the child – for the decree Quam Singulari states --"The age of discretion, both for Confession and for Holy Communion, is the time when a child begins to reason, that is about the seventh year, more or less. Begins is the operative word. Knowing the difference between right and wrong indicates that the use of reason has begun and is present a child—and can happen before the child reaches 7.
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Aramis
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Specifically, in the Byzantine Rite, children receive first communion in the liturgy which follows their baptism and confirmation, which is usually at a week of age. They do not begin going to confession until around age 8, but do receive communion. They are even entitled to receive in Roman parishes if capable of physically handling the physical form of the Eucharist. (So, generally, this means about age 2+.)
My understanding is that this is also true of the Alexandrian(Coptic) Rite.
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FrDavid96
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You insist on denying the context of the document, which had to do with denying Communion/Confession to teenagers, and NOT denying them to 4 year olds. If Pius X had thought that the average 4 year old had attained the age of reason, he would have said as much. He did not. Instead he specified age 7 as the approximate age. There is a considerable difference between a 4 year old and a 7 year old which you seem to be denying.
Once again, you are confusing the understanding of right and wrong with the capacity to reason. They are not the same thing, and Pius X was not saying that they are. My concern here is that you do not understand what “age of reason” means. You are confusing right/wrong with reasoning. They are not the same thing no matter how many times you insist that they are.
A 7 year old needs to UNDERSTAND what confession is about. That means understanding it from the point of view of a 7 year old, not an adult.
As I’ve said earlier, the capacity to reason might appear in a child younger than 7. Of course that’s true.
You quote the document but you’re not saying the same thing that the document itself is saying.
I am not saying that the child needs a “mature use of reason” I am saying that the child needs a child’s capacity to reason. Without that, confession is simply not possible, and indeed, external appearances aside, no sacrament occurs.
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whatevergirl
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True–I wasn’t really considering their size, although they were smaller…I was noticing more how they were on line…they seemed to not have the verbal skills of that of someone above 5 or 6. When I see 7 or 8 yr olds on line, there is a distinct difference, so I wonder what type of ‘confession’ a 4 or 5 yr old can be making, if they can’t communicate all that well…I tend to lean towards what Father is saying in this thread–that one needs to have a true understanding, of what is taking place.
I’m short for my age, too. lol
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Walking_Home
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FrDavid96 --honestly–I am not denying the context of the document. Yes–Pope St. Pius X used the age of 7 as the general age by which a child should have attained the use of reason----but he also acknowledge that this could happen at a younger age.
Now you saying the child needs a a “child’s capacity to reason”—not a “mature use of reason”. It seems you have made a change from what you said in your prior posts --where you place requirements on what a child needs to know —basically all the understanding required of a more mature person.
A “childs capacity to reason” would be reflected by the child knowing the difference between right and wrong—which Quam Singulari states --is indicative of a child’s use of reason.
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Walking_Home
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True–I wasn’t really considering their size, although they were smaller…I was noticing more how they were on line…they seemed to not have the verbal skills of that of someone above 5 or 6. When I see 7 or 8 yr olds on line, there is a distinct difference,** so I wonder what type of ‘confession’ a 4 or 5 yr old can be making, if they can’t communicate all that well…I tend to lean towards what Father is saying in this thread–that one needs to have a true understanding, of what is taking place.**
I’m short for my age, too. lol
What type of confession—a confession where a child knows he/she has done something wrong—for example–taking something that did not belong to them. Do we not start teaching our children at a very young age --not to take things for themselves–from a friends/families home or from a store. A child who knows it is not right --but pockets an item that does not belong to him/her --would be able to explain to a priest his actions and that he/she is sorry to have done the deed.
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whatevergirl
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I must not be making myself clear or something, so just continue in the thread without me. Thanks.
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FrDavid96
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If they cannot communicate their sins, and cannot understand what sin is, what forgiveness is, and what contrition is, then they are not making a confession. What would be happening in such a situation would not be a sacrament at all, but a simulation of the sacrament. I’m not saying that the priest in that Church is simulating sacraments, but I’m saying that if a child cannot reason then no sacrament occurs. Perhaps something else prefectly legitimate is happening–I do hope so.True–I wasn’t really considering their size, although they were smaller…I was noticing more how they were on line…they seemed to not have the verbal skills of that of someone above 5 or 6. When I see 7 or 8 yr olds on line, there is a distinct difference, so I wonder what type of ‘confession’ a 4 or 5 yr old can be making, if they can’t communicate all that well…I tend to lean towards what Father is saying in this thread–that one needs to have a true understanding, of what is taking place.
I’m short for my age, too. lol
Think of it this way, how can a person make an act of contrition if that person does not understand what constitutes contrition?
If the average 4 and 5 year old in that parish has attained the use of reason, then someone needs to test the water.
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FrDavid96
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No. Absolutely not. The document is not saying that.
Knowing right from wrong is NOT the same thing as the capacity to reason. I have an 11 year old labrador retriever who sometimes knows the difference between right and wrong. He does not have the capacity to reason.
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Walking_Home
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Father — I am shocked—using a dog in comparison to a child. And I am also shocked that you would deny that for a child to know right from wrong takes reason.
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Seatuck
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Father is correct. Demonstrating knowing right from wrong is some cases is not equal to being able to reason properly in all cases and to understand fully what takes place in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation. It isn’t enough to know that if I do this Mom or Dad gets mad and I get punished , yelled at spanked etc so it must be “wrong”. It’s a help,it’s a start but that’s not all that there is. That is the typical demonstration of knowledge of right and wrong that you are going to get from the average 4/5 year old. There is a little something more needed to say the child truly is grasping the concept of right and wrong and reasoning independently .
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Walking_Home
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Look – one can try to find any type of “explanation” to say that a child does not have the ability to reason—but the fact is a child younger than 7 can have that ability. Furthermore —Quam Singulari does not place the condition that a child is to know all the doctrine that surrounds the sacrament of confession.
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/age%20of%20reason
Main Entry:
age of reason
Date:
1650
1: the time of life when one begins to be able to distinguish right from wrong
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10quam.htm
- The age of discretion, both for Confession and for Holy Communion, is the time when a child** begins** to reason, that is about the seventh year, more or less. From that time on begins the obligation of fulfilling the precept of both Confession and Communion.
- A full and perfect knowledge of Christian doctrine **is not necessary either for First Confession or for First Communion. **Afterwards, however, the child will be obliged to learn gradually the entire Catechism according to his ability.
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FrDavid96
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Walking,
I am denyinig it because it is objectively and intellectually, untrue.
The reason why you are shocked is because you don’t understand what is meant by the term “age of reason.” I am trying to explain it to you. I use the example of an animal’s ability to sometimes know that some things are right or wrong to illustrate the fact that having merely that capacity does not mean that the being is a “reasoning being”
Simply knowing that some things are right and other things are wrong is not itself the capacity to reason. A person must have the ability to “think about” why it is right or wrong–that is what is meant by the capacity to reason.
If I say that both dogs and children have hair I might do so to explain the definition of the word “mammal” That doesn’t mean that I am equating the two. Likewise, when I explain that a dog does not have the capacity to reason, and an infant does not have the capacity to reason, I am doing so as a way of explaining what the term “reason” means.
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FrDavid96
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Walking, you keep ignoring the word “REASON”
To reason does not mean simply knowing right from wrong, it means thinking about it.
Here’s how the Catholic Encyclopedia defines the age of reason
Age of Reason, the name given to that period of human life at which persons are deemed to begin to be morally responsible. This, as a rule, happens at the age of seven, or thereabouts, though the use of reason requisite for moral discernment may come before, or may be delayed until notably after, that time.
Knowing right from wrong comes FIRST in a human being’s development, having the ability to reason comes at some later point.
You can quote Quam Singulari all day long, but if you don’t understand what it’s saying and why it is saying it, it does not help your position. The document is saying that a 7 year old must have a 7 year old’s understanding of confession in contrast to the practice of requiring an adult understanding. Nevertheless that understanding MUST be there for confession to occur, as opposed to a simulation of the Sacrament.
And by the way, keep in mind that I’ve been saying all along that age 7 is the approximate age of reason, lest you jump on that point yet again.
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Walking_Home
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Father – I am astonished as to how you divorce the ability to reason from knowing right from wrong. It will be your choice --if a young child comes to you for confession and you send the child packing because in your mind the child has not developed the ability to reason. I pray for any child who may find themselves in that situation.
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