Aren't protestants following tradition too?

[Daedalus761138]

I do not think so. Not ONE early church father ever mentions it, let alone supports it, advocates it or claims it is Apostolic in nature. Sola Scriptura is a novelty…period!

The Fathers certainly do support the sufficiency of Scriptures in tems of what doctrines must be believed for salvation. They consider the Scriptures, interpreted within the Church, as the norm or rule of faith. “Sola Scriptura” doesn’t necessarily imply an individual acting alone without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let’s not put an Anabaptist spin on what “Sola Scriptura” must mean. The Bible, the Creeds and early Councils are objective standards of the Christian faith, all theological reasoning should come from them, with the Bible as the supreme authority. I’m not sure this is even contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

 

[Tomster]

The Fathers certainly do support the sufficiency of Scriptures in tems of what doctrines must be believed for salvation. They consider the Scriptures, interpreted within the Church, as the norm or rule of faith. “Sola Scriptura” doesn’t necessarily imply an individual acting alone without the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let’s not put an Anabaptist spin on what “Sola Scriptura” must mean. The Bible, the Creeds and early Councils are objective standards of the Christian faith, all theological reasoning should come from them, with the Bible as the supreme authority. I’m not sure this is even contrary to the Roman Catholic faith.

It is contrary to the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible is not the supreme authority, or as we say the rule of faith.

 

[benjohnson]

I really do not see how reunion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is keeping you from coming into communion with Rome. I may be missing something

Many of our concerns with recently promulgated Catholic dogma are shared with our Orthodox friends, so it’s sort of a proxy. God willing if that happens, our objections would be much smaller.

 

[Daedalus761138]

It is contrary to the Roman Catholic Church. The Bible is not the supreme authority, or as we say the rule of faith.

If you think the Bible, the Creeds and the Councils are nothing compared to the voice of one man, however much esteemed within your church… I think you are seriously distorting the issue and being polemical.

Asking Protestants to believe doctrines merely because “the Pope says so” is hardly fair. Argue from something objective we can all agree on.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Many of our concerns with recently promulgated Catholic dogma are shared with our Orthodox friends, so it’s sort of a proxy. God willing if that happens, our objections would be much smaller.

So if the Orthodox accept them you will?

 

[JonNC]

=Tomster;10612716]Well, steido, the unity which we all hope and pray for cannot be accomplished in the manner in which you suggest.

For an ecumenical council to be truly ecumenical it would have to be convened by the Holy See. Papal co-operation must be of the fullest consent to make a council ecumenical and its decrees have no binding authority until confirmed by the Holy See. There is no appeal from the Pope to an ecumenical council and if, say for instance, the Pope dies during the course of a council the council is suspended until his successor reopens it. The decrees of such a council are infallible which might pose a problem for some parts of world-wide Protestantism. In others words the decrees promulgated might not square with some aspects of Protestant theology.

Well, sure, Tom, the papacy would need to be provide full consent, but so would the other patriarchates of the east. And any decrees would need to be confirmed by all of them, ISTM. That just goes unsaid.
And, yes, it would be a problem for many protestants, and probably a number of Lutherans, which is why I said I was speaking personally.

In regards to papal authority and infallibility, those matters have already been signed off on in previous councils. So, if a council is the avenue you are looking for in regards to Church unity, you must understand that ground rules have already been established.

This, my friend, I think has been the real sticking point. The councils you speak of were not truly ecumenical. None of the first seven confirm papal universality of jurisdiction , and certainly not infallibility.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=steido01;10612458]…although Jon is not alone in his sentiments. Some (many, even?) well-catechized individuals in Confessional Lutheran bodies would similarly, and necessarily, reexamine their protest should a real reunion between East and West be made. Some might even go so far as to consider the Reformation “accomplished,” provided the reunion was made by a truly ecumenical council, since such a council would necessarily have to address Papal authority and infallibility, etc. What a glad day it would be! This side of the Reformation has been “waiting for Mantua” for nearly 500 years - none of us wants continued division within His church.

I agree.

I can’t speak for the entirety of the LCMS, either. But the Synod, in general, is eagerly watching the discussions between the CC and the Lutheran Church - Canada (which shares full pulpit-altar fellowship with the LCMS). Those discussions would be a good indicator of what we can expect from future dialogues. Pray that the Holy Spirit guides the discussions to a fruitful conclusion!

This is quite true. For confessional Lutherans, ISTM there is high hope for these talks. Also true, and ironic, is how the HHS mandate, along with the attack on the ministerial exception, in the US is thrusting the LCMS and the USCCB into a new relationship.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I really do not see how reunion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is keeping you from coming into communion with Rome. I may be missing something

From my own POV; the division (schism) of the early Church leaves the authority of the Church in doubt. Which, in fact, is correct, from a standpoint of Sacred Tradition, on papal universal jurisdiction, infallibility, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Filioque, the IC, and a number of other doctrinal issues. Were these solved, which they would have to be for there to be unity, then for me, the issue of authority is solved, and the questions I have about the more recent Catholic doctrines Ben refers to are rendered moot.

Jon

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

From my own POV; the division (schism) of the early Church leaves the authority of the Church in doubt. Which, in fact, is correct, from a standpoint of Sacred Tradition, on papal universal jurisdiction, infallibility, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Filioque, the IC, and a number of other doctrinal issues. Were these solved, which they would have to be for there to be unity, then for me, the issue of authority is solved, and the questions I have about the more recent Catholic doctrines Ben refers to are rendered moot.

Jon

All of the above that you refer to Jon has been declared to be infallible dogma at a number of ecumenical councils. The Roman church cannot rescind the authority of the papacy or purgatory, et al. Nor can the Orthodox accept them. It is no wonder that the Orthodox Church in America considers Protestant theology closer to Latin theology than Orthodoxy is.

 

[JonNC]

All of the above that you refer to Jon has been declared to be infallible dogma at a number of ecumenical councils. The Roman church cannot rescind the authority of the papacy or purgatory, et al. Nor can the Orthodox accept them. It is no wonder that the Orthodox Church in America considers Protestant theology closer to Latin theology than Orthodoxy is.

They were not truly ecumenical, since Orthodoxy doesn’t accept them. Generally, however, I agree. It seems to me (without data to support it at my fingertips) that Lutheran clergy who do convert tend to move toward Orthodoxy. In many ways, I understand why - its those pesky infallible dogmas of which you speak.

Jon

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

They were not truly ecumenical, since Orthodoxy doesn’t accept them. Generally, however, I agree. It seems to me (without data to support it at my fingertips) that Lutheran clergy who do convert tend to move toward Orthodoxy. In many ways, I understand why - its those pesky infallible dogmas of which you speak.

Jon

Right…they were not ecumenical in the sense that they were neither imperial nor universal. However, Rome considers them as ecumenical as the first 7. And yes, I’ve known a few Lutherans who became Orthodox (I was raised Lutheran). None to Catholicism…unless it was for marriage.

 

[steido01]

This, my friend, I think has been the real sticking point. The councils you speak of were not truly ecumenical. None of the first seven confirm papal universality of jurisdiction , and certainly not infallibility.

Tomster, this is what I was meaning when I carefully placed ‘truly’ in front of ‘ecumenical council.’ Jon, thank you for giving a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say.

Countless Lutherans and Orthodox have discussed this topic before. Among them is Hermann Sasse, who touched on this before his death. I’ve posted the article before, but it didn’t garner much of a read. Seems a bit more appropriate here. Food for thought, anyway.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Tomster, this is what I was meaning when I carefully placed ‘truly’ in front of ‘ecumenical council.’ Jon, thank you for giving a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say.

Countless Lutherans and Orthodox have discussed this topic before. Among them is Hermann Sasse, who touched on this before his death. I’ve posted the article before, but it didn’t garner much of a read. Seems a bit more appropriate here. Food for thought, anyway.

Ah, Sasse. Brilliant as always.

 

[benjohnson]

So if the Orthodox accept them you will?

If the Othdox accepted them in an eccumenical council - then I would accept them.

I’d still grumble a bit about it, but the kicking and screaming would be over.

 

[Tomster]

From my own POV; the division (schism) of the early Church leaves the authority of the Church in doubt. Which, in fact, is correct, from a standpoint of Sacred Tradition, on papal universal jurisdiction, infallibility, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, the Filioque, the IC, and a number of other doctrinal issues. Were these solved, which they would have to be for there to be unity, then for me, the issue of authority is solved, and the questions I have about the more recent Catholic doctrines Ben refers to are rendered moot.

Jon

Careful Jon. Your POV may be getting in the way of true discernment here. Doubting the authority of the Church has led many to leave her. Remember Jon, the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Not the Bible, not Jon, not Tomster, but the Church.

And, as you well know, the doctrines which you have mentioned have been solved. Now, having said that, why would the Catholic Church need to re-solve them? Could it be, that because of your own POV (translated: private judgment), these doctrines do not square with your own concept of tradition?

 

[Tomster]

Tomster, this is what I was meaning when I carefully placed ‘truly’ in front of ‘ecumenical council.’ Jon, thank you for giving a clearer explanation of what I was trying to say.

Countless Lutherans and Orthodox have discussed this topic before. Among them is Hermann Sasse, who touched on this before his death. I’ve posted the article before, but it didn’t garner much of a read. Seems a bit more appropriate here. Food for thought, anyway.

Really, every ecumenical council in the history of the Catholic Church has been ratified by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.

 

[JonNC]

=Tomster;10616808]Careful Jon. Your POV may be getting in the way of true discernment here. Doubting the authority of the Church has led many to leave her. Remember Jon, the Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Not the Bible, not Jon, not Tomster, but the Church.

Hi Tomster,
Everyone deals with their own POV, ISTM, to some extent, with prayerful consideration. I do, you do, we all do.

And, as you well know, the doctrines which you have mentioned have been solved. Now, having said that, why would the Catholic Church need to re-solve them? Could it be, that because of your own POV (translated: private judgment), these doctrines do not square with your own concept of tradition?

How have those doctrines been resolved regarding unity with Orthodoxy? The doctrines I mentioned are clear differences between the EO and CC. My point is they would have to be resolved between you for unity. If you are saying they have been resolved, perhaps you could tell me how?

Jon

 

[Tomster]

Well, sure, Tom, the papacy would need to be provide full consent, but so would the other patriarchates of the east. And any decrees would need to be confirmed by all of them, ISTM. That just goes unsaid.
And, yes, it would be a problem for many protestants, and probably a number of Lutherans, which is why I said I was speaking personally.

This, my friend, I think has been the real sticking point. The councils you speak of were not truly ecumenical. None of the first seven confirm papal universality of jurisdiction , and certainly not infallibility.

Jon

Jon, why do you think it would be a problem for many protestants and probably a number of Lutherans? Isn’t there anyone within all of those many different faith communities capable of giving authoritative direction to their respective flocks?

 

[JonNC]

Really, every ecumenical council in the history of the Catholic Church has been ratified by the Pope, the Bishop of Rome.

But they haven’t been approved by the EO patriarchates, hence the division.
Jon

 

[Tomster]

Hi Tomster,
Everyone deals with their own POV, ISTM, to some extent, with prayerful consideration. I do, you do, we all do.

How have those doctrines been resolved regarding unity with Orthodoxy? The doctrines I mentioned are clear differences between the EO and CC. My point is they would have to be resolved between you for unity. If you are saying they have been resolved, perhaps you could tell me how?

Jon

Within Catholicism? Those doctrines have been solved, infallibly I might add. Ecumenically speaking, all we have to do is present them to our Orthodox brothers and sisters in a manner in which they will understand it. The dialog continues.